I finished a first rough draft of an OD&D-inspired-ish spy thriller RPG. I had our first playtest and I am still working the notes into what I hope to see the game eventually become.

My big goal with the game is essentially OD&D + SpyCraft + Top Secret. The game will be about what your agent does to succeed, not what's on his character sheet. However, the game will not be about PCs who can take Rasputin level body damage and keep shooting. My game won't be an 80s action movie (which are movies that I love), but instead try to emulate spy novels and spy shows where its much more about the espionage and the unraveling of mysteries than the shoot-em-up.

Of course, there will be plenty of opportunities to blow the hell out of opponents. But in my game, it will be much more about setting up an ambush and using the initiative to blow the crap out of your foe.

There is also an underlying cruelty in my game design. I am a big fan of Richard Marcinko, aka The Rogue Warrior, aka a Navy Seal who may or may not have been a crazy badass, but certainly wrote some fun novels. In all his books, he talks about how Murphy's Law tags along on missions to screw stuff up. That's a theme in my game. The PCs can never be sure how much of their mission briefing is politically gamesmanship and outright bad intel. They don't know if their mission is the real one or just a decoy.

So the game isn't "America! Fuck yeah!", but it isn't Misery Tourism either, but a spy game where the PCs live in the gray area at all times.

GMs are encouraged to extrapolate adventures from "today's headlines", and I encourage them to find the biggest nutball conspiracy freaks on the web and steal their ideas. This North Korea mess is a freaking gold mine.

Oh, I kept the alignment concept, but went more Palladium style. Each character has a core Motivation. Some are thrill seekers, others are driven by ideology, patriotism or power and some are in it for the pension. Advanced players can pick a secondary motivation to deepen their character, but we are firmly about the mission, much less so about resolving backstories.  

Here's my thoughts for this thread:

1) Ask me questions about my game;
2) Talk about your OSR spy game if you have one brewing;
3) Talk about what you would want in a OD&D-ish spy game
4) Profit!!!

As with all mystery games how you going to avoid the PCs just missing the well hidden clue, and will there be guidelines for GMs to construct plots with appropriate clues?

If initiative trumps in combat how will you keep tyhe game OSR-ish but avoid combats being a single dice roll who wins initiative wins

Gun Porn? How to differentiate weapons?

Skills system? d20? %?
Social Skills?

How lethal is it? If a Pistol does 1d6+2 (say for example) how may HP will a PC have? Exploding dice (the usual d20 answer to firearm damage)?

Unarmed combat? martial arts (you mentioned Top Secret as an inspiration) or not? If so how handled Oriental Adventures style?

Class based ?
What is the metaphor for sorcery and magic in general?

What does the whole thing give me I can't get from CoC swapping spies for tentacles?

Quote from: jibbajibba;644031As with all mystery games how you going to avoid the PCs just missing the well hidden clue, and will there be guidelines for GMs to construct plots with appropriate clues?

I am not a fan of pixel bitching, nor do I like railroading. I will definitely have lots of GM advice on mission creation. Most missions have pretty tight timetables. Dude X will hand Dude Y the stolen microchip on the 4pm train and you gotta make sure Dude Y leaves the train with a fake microchip. Go!

However, mission failure is an option. Mission objectives may even change mid-mission. There may be total clusterfucks caused by internal agency politics and shifting political shenanigans by scumbag politicians, lobbyists, ambassadors and multi-nationals with their own agendas.

And when all else fails, there is Dicing with the Devil. The group can decide once per mission to "trust their luck" and see if things go their way. Each side rolls 1D6 and ties go the PCs. If they succeed, the GM throws them a wonderful bit of luck. If they fail...then Mr. Murphy and his Law come a-calling...

Of course, I will have lots of examples and guidelines for how far to help or hurt based on Dicing with the Devil.

Quote from: jibbajibba;644031If initiative trumps in combat how will you keep tyhe game OSR-ish but avoid combats being a single dice roll who wins initiative wins

It's less about initiative and more about ambush. Instead of busting in the door and shooting, you will want to stake out the house, know when your target will be in the kitchen and sniper the hell out of that kitchen when the target is getting his morning latte.

And there will be drone strikes.

If you are in a firefight, then the luck of the draw (initiative) will be an issue. Fortunately, your agents aren't mooks. You are trained pros and I treat the PCs well. That said, be doubly careful when facing off against other agents.

Quote from: jibbajibba;644031Gun Porn? How to differentiate weapons?

I am into medieval weapon porn, but less enthusiastic about gun porn for some reason. There will definitely be a level of differentiation between various weapons (pistol vs. SMG vs. shotgun).

That said, I have built a +1/-1 system for the GM to use if he wants to Gun Porn it up. Using my vast Xbox Counterstrike expertise, I have a semi-system where GMs and players can say Gun X is better than Gun Y at accuracy, damage, range, etc if they want that kind of detail. But in general, every firearm is good at killing and some are really, really good.

The final game will have some mid-point of Gun Porn where the gun nuts will be totally unhappy (because they can never be satisfied), but the average gamer will be happy that his choice of weapon actually has meaning in gameplay.

Quote from: jibbajibba;644031Skills system? d20? %?

Aaargh!!! Skills I hate thee! I have so much trouble with the skill system right now. I am having a hellish time balancing Stats vs. Skills in which should trump the other. In the playtest version, you roll D20 vs. your saving throw and add your Stat bonus and a +2 if you have the skill.
 
The skill system encourages agents to be Jack of All Trades instead of focused Skill Monkeys with +10. The concept is that agents go through tremendous training for a multitude of skills and you can attempt almost anything, but you have your personal areas of expertise.

Quote from: jibbajibba;644031Social Skills?

Yes, but with lots of roleplay advice for the GM. All social skill rolls get a +1/0/-1 modifier based on the player's roleplay. But the GM is encouraged to judge each player by their ability, aka the really shy guy doing any roleplay deserves a +1 whereas the extrovert players can't phone it in for a +1.

But all skills should have a roleplay component if possible, rewarding the players ideas with a bump on the dice.

Quote from: jibbajibba;644031How lethal is it? If a Pistol does 1d6+2 (say for example) how may HP will a PC have? Exploding dice (the usual d20 answer to firearm damage)?

Right now, the HTK (hits to kill, stole that from Judges Guild) is 1D6 per level + CON bonus. The conceit is that you become more accustomed to surviving pain, more focused in the face of agony and more willpower as you go up levels and gain more HTK.

That said, if somebody rolls a natural 6 on the D6 for damage, then you die. Blammo! That's how we did it in the playtest. I am debating changing it to a natural 20 on the Attack roll.

I have a GM advice section called "Live and Let (Live/Die)" where the GM has several options for setting the lethality of their campaign. I ran the playtest using the "You Only Live Twice" option where your first death is an amazing close call where you got crazy lucky...but nobody dodges Death a second time.

Quote from: jibbajibba;644031Unarmed combat? martial arts (you mentioned Top Secret as an inspiration) or not? If so how handled Oriental Adventures style?

Definitely inspired by Top Secret, Oriental Adventures and Ninjas & Superspies, but like firearm combat, the system is about speed of play, not Porn Fu. I am working on how counterstrikes and blocks work, but in the playtest, I had one martial arts PC, but unfortunately she got mowed down in a badly planned firefight before I got to see her in action.

Quote from: jibbajibba;644031Class based ?

Yes. We have Infilitrators, Confiscators, Investigators, Exterminators and one more class that I rename every couple of weeks. The classes are niche protected, but not straight jackets.

Also, you have a Background from your pre-agency days which gives various bonuses.

Quote from: jibbajibba;644031What is the metaphor for sorcery and magic in general?

I have already been writing the Appendix. There will be rules for Psionics and for Demon Summoning if you want to add either (or both) of those flavors into your campaign. The base game is all about "real world espionage", but if you want to do a near future with psionics spy thriller, the rules will be there. I have also been tossing around ideas for a Spies in Fantasy World supplement or spinoff or whatever, but I gotta get the main game done first and foremost.

Quote from: jibbajibba;644031What does the whole thing give me I can't get from CoC swapping spies for tentacles?

For the hardcore BRPer, probably not much. I love BRP and I've definitely played modern warfare games with it. It's lethal and skill based and super fast and easy.

What my game offers is the D&Dism familiarity with some fun twists that try to emulate the gray unpredictable world in the shadows of The Great Game of global espionage. You roll up a character in 5 minutes and blammo, you are in the action.

Jibba's already fielded the questions I had.

Looking forward to seeing this. Let us know when you have a playtest doc!

Also, do you have a title?

Quote from: Spinachcat;6440261) Ask me questions about my game;

There really isnt a recent old school spy game I can think of, so this seems like a good niche. When you say old school spy though, what does that mean to you in terms of mechanics and flavor?

Quote2) Talk about your OSR spy game if you have one brewing;

It isnt really old school, but Terror Network is pretty espionage heavy (though the focus is counter-terrorism. It did pretty well compared with our other games. One thing I noticed is people running espionage campaign are hungry for material and highly enthusiastic when you supply it. My advice is to learn about your audience (Jibba touched on this will the whole missing clues question---even if you dont embrace its conclusions, and i dont, you should read gumshoe and become familiar with it if you haven't because a lot of espionage GMs and players will be coming at it from that angle) and to respect them. Terror Network is also in that more "ripped from the headlines" and naturalistic zone than some of the other espionage games out there. I would be happy to talk about what i think we may have done right and wrong with it if that helps you with your project.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;644149There really isnt a recent old school spy game I can think of, so this seems like a good niche. .

Expeditious Retreat Press recently wrote a RPG "heavily inspired by" the James Bond RPG.  It is called "Classified"; you can find details of it on his blog.

Of course, the more the merrier.

Quote from: EOTB;644154Expeditious Retreat Press recently wrote a RPG "heavily inspired by" the James Bond RPG.  It is called "Classified"; you can find details of it on his blog.

Of course, the more the merrier.

That sounds interesting. Do you have a link? Having trouble finding it on the blog.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;644175That sounds interesting. Do you have a link? Having trouble finding it on the blog.

here.
http://josephbrowning.blogspot.com/search/label/Classified

Quote from: baran_i_kanu;644210here.
http://josephbrowning.blogspot.com/search/label/Classified

Nice art. I will definitely be getting this one.

Quote from: Spinachcat;644026I finished a first rough draft of an OD&D-inspired-ish spy thriller RPG. I had our first playtest and I am still working the notes into what I hope to see the game eventually become.

My big goal with the game is essentially OD&D + SpyCraft + Top Secret. The game will be about what your agent does to succeed, not what's on his character sheet. However, the game will not be about PCs who can take Rasputin level body damage and keep shooting. My game won't be an 80s action movie (which are movies that I love), but instead try to emulate spy novels and spy shows where its much more about the espionage and the unraveling of mysteries than the shoot-em-up.

Of course, there will be plenty of opportunities to blow the hell out of opponents. But in my game, it will be much more about setting up an ambush and using the initiative to blow the crap out of your foe.

There is also an underlying cruelty in my game design. I am a big fan of Richard Marcinko, aka The Rogue Warrior, aka a Navy Seal who may or may not have been a crazy badass, but certainly wrote some fun novels. In all his books, he talks about how Murphy's Law tags along on missions to screw stuff up. That's a theme in my game. The PCs can never be sure how much of their mission briefing is politically gamesmanship and outright bad intel. They don't know if their mission is the real one or just a decoy.

So the game isn't "America! Fuck yeah!", but it isn't Misery Tourism either, but a spy game where the PCs live in the gray area at all times.

GMs are encouraged to extrapolate adventures from "today's headlines", and I encourage them to find the biggest nutball conspiracy freaks on the web and steal their ideas. This North Korea mess is a freaking gold mine.

Oh, I kept the alignment concept, but went more Palladium style. Each character has a core Motivation. Some are thrill seekers, others are driven by ideology, patriotism or power and some are in it for the pension. Advanced players can pick a secondary motivation to deepen their character, but we are firmly about the mission, much less so about resolving backstories.  

Here's my thoughts for this thread:

1) Ask me questions about my game;
2) Talk about your OSR spy game if you have one brewing;
3) Talk about what you would want in a OD&D-ish spy game
4) Profit!!!

OK first off I already love this. Not having seen shit else I love it. That it isn't "America! Fuck yeah!", but it isn't Misery Tourism, but a gray area. I love that. Im a big fan of John LeCarre (Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy and about a dozen other bits of awesome), Robert Littell (The Company), Olen Steinhauer (The Tourist), Frederick Forsyth (The Day of the Jackle, The Dogs of War, to name a few), Ian Mackintosh (The Sandbaggers), and Greg Rucka (Queen & Country). So it sounds to me like the perfect game.

Im not real big on alignments, but if your going to have them. I definitely think the palladium style are the way to go. Just my opinion.

Quote from: Spinachcat;644041And when all else fails, there is Dicing with the Devil. The group can decide once per mission to "trust their luck" and see if things go their way. Each side rolls 1D6 and ties go the PCs. If they succeed, the GM throws them a wonderful bit of luck. If they fail...then Mr. Murphy and his Law come a-calling...

Of course, I will have lots of examples and guidelines for how far to help or hurt based on Dicing with the Devil.

I like this. PLans are great till everything goes off the rails. But does their need to be rules for it? Not sure. But Im interested to see it in play. It makes something that I've been rolling around in my head for my game I'm working on. Basically a Humanity stat like in CP2020, or VtM. Where fucked up things mess with ones morality. I guess I look at it as a measure of how decisions numb you to things. Still pondering about that one.

Quote from: Spinachcat;644041I am into medieval weapon porn, but less enthusiastic about gun porn for some reason. There will definitely be a level of differentiation between various weapons (pistol vs. SMG vs. shotgun).

That said, I have built a +1/-1 system for the GM to use if he wants to Gun Porn it up. Using my vast Xbox Counterstrike expertise, I have a semi-system where GMs and players can say Gun X is better than Gun Y at accuracy, damage, range, etc if they want that kind of detail. But in general, every firearm is good at killing and some are really, really good.

The final game will have some mid-point of Gun Porn where the gun nuts will be totally unhappy (because they can never be satisfied), but the average gamer will be happy that his choice of weapon actually has meaning in gameplay.

[Stands up] "Hi Im Ronin, Im addicted to gun porn."
Ok that being said. Its not a deal breaker. Hit points, damage are all ready abstract things. Depending on a million things. But I do have questions:)
Now do like the roll a six instant kill kind of thing. But not knowing what you have in mind for damage dice for what. Have you taken into account that say 1d6 damage is actually 1d5 with that. Is that ok? Another thought. Maybe instead of instant kill it should force a save or die roll? Not telling you what to do. Just seem to be right in my noggin. (Your mileage may very).
Now how would you handle ultra high powered weapons. The thought that jumps to mind is the anti-material/super long range sniper rifle. (So weapons chambered for say 12.7×99mm NATO/.50 BMG), 12.7×108mm Russian, 14.5×114mm Russian, and 20mm cartridges) These are pretty much one shot one kill weapons. A straight torso/head strike is a kill. Limbs are blown off, in a single shot. Real fucking devastation. With your damage dice, and one shot kill ideas. How would you handle this in the game?

Quote from: Spinachcat;644041Aaargh!!! Skills I hate thee! I have so much trouble with the skill system right now. I am having a hellish time balancing Stats vs. Skills in which should trump the other. In the playtest version, you roll D20 vs. your saving throw and add your Stat bonus and a +2 if you have the skill.
 
The skill system encourages agents to be Jack of All Trades instead of focused Skill Monkeys with +10. The concept is that agents go through tremendous training for a multitude of skills and you can attempt almost anything, but you have your personal areas of expertise.

Yes, but with lots of roleplay advice for the GM. All social skill rolls get a +1/0/-1 modifier based on the player's roleplay. But the GM is encouraged to judge each player by their ability, aka the really shy guy doing any roleplay deserves a +1 whereas the extrovert players can't phone it in for a +1.

But all skills should have a roleplay component if possible, rewarding the players ideas with a bump on the dice.

Yeah skills is one I keep getting hung up on with my stuff too. Do you have only a couple like microlite20, or do you go crazy palladium on it? As to how much attributes and skills interact. That depends on your system. The idea its treated like a saving throw. I don't know if I'm sold on. I like stat bonus plus skill vs a target number. How old school that is, is kinda debatable. I suppose not very. But It seems better to me. Not having seem totally what you have in mind. I think stat bonus, plus a skill bonus (+1-3 not unlike the stat bonus) plus a d20 vs a variable target number depending on difficulty seems right to me. Again personal taste thing. Right now I'm toying with the idea of a roll under system like BESM(2nd ed).

Quote from: Spinachcat;644041Right now, the HTK (hits to kill, stole that from Judges Guild) is 1D6 per level + CON bonus. The conceit is that you become more accustomed to surviving pain, more focused in the face of agony and more willpower as you go up levels and gain more HTK.

Is that maybe too many HPs? I only say that because at level 5 you might have any where from 5-45 HP's? Seems like that might be a lot. I suppose the instant kill rule kind of levels this out, but I dont know. I guess I would have to see hard damage values.

Quote from: Spinachcat;644041Definitely inspired by Top Secret, Oriental Adventures and Ninjas & Superspies, but like firearm combat, the system is about speed of play, not Porn Fu. I am working on how counterstrikes and blocks work, but in the playtest, I had one martial arts PC, but unfortunately she got mowed down in a badly planned firefight before I got to see her in action.

An idea I'm working on, is what I call riposte. In my combat system. Melee/Hand to hand is handled with opposing rolls. So if the attacker is bested by the defenders roll. And the defender has the appropriate ability, item, martial art skill, or what have you. That the defender can immediately launch an attack. Which also can be riposted. So giving that fast back and forth block and attack action.

Quote from: Spinachcat;644041Yes. We have Infilitrators, Confiscators, Investigators, Exterminators and one more class that I rename every couple of weeks. The classes are niche protected, but not straight jackets.

Also, you have a Background from your pre-agency days which gives various bonuses.

I have similar classes in mine. Soldier, Agent, Grifter/Face, and Controller. (aka fighter, thief/sneaky, charmer, brains)

Oh and one more thing:)
How are you planning on treating armor? Obviously armor is a rare thing in this genre. But will you have it modify AC? Or will it absorb damage like in CP2020? Or will it be a combination of both kinda like Palladium?

Quote from: The Butcher;644087Also, do you have a title?

Lots of half-assed titles, but nothing final yet. The working title is Shadowblade: Cloak & Dagger Roleplaying, but that feels like fantasy spies.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;644149When you say old school spy though, what does that mean to you in terms of mechanics and flavor?

I am a terribly disappointed, yet devoted SpyCraft fan. I wanted to love SpyCraft. I was thrilled when AEG launched Living SpyCraft. And then I suffered through actual play.

I played Top Secret, Espionage, Danger International and James Bond back in the day and none of them really did it for me. Top Secret had great supplements, James Bond was awesome for 1 on 1 gameplay, but I always had more fun running spy games using Classic Traveller. In the past decade, I have been using Ninjas & Superspies for my non-SpyCraft sessions, but while the N&SS has lots of coolness, it has too much clunkiness.

So I have been dorking with an OD&D meets Spies RPG. Mechanically, I am looking for something akin to B/X, SWN, S&W where the system falls into the background, especially since its very familiar.

Here's my goal. If I do my job right, the players will have great PCs they feel have enough depth, a system that is easy but firm enough to do its job and spend almost all of actual play time focused on the mission, not the mechanics.

That's my vision old Old School + Spies.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;644149One thing I noticed is people running espionage campaign are hungry for material and highly enthusiastic when you supply it. My advice is to learn about your audience.

I agree, but based on my research, I am very unsure if my mindset for what I personally want out of a spy game is in sync with what I have heard over the years from the espionage RPG fandom.

I may be out of step with them, but I need to create the spy game I want to play and maybe in doing so, I will hit on something that others will enjoy.

Lots of the espionage RPG fandom really enjoy the "realism" that heavy real world detailed game supplements offer. AKA, what would a 1976 KGB agent actually have access to? What would they carry on a mission? That kind of detail isn't something I enjoy or want in my games.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;644149Jibba touched on this will the whole missing clues question---even if you dont embrace its conclusions, and i dont, you should read gumshoe and become familiar with it if you haven't because a lot of espionage GMs and players will be coming at it from that angle and to respect them.

I am familiar with Gumshoe and I enjoyed Trail of Cthulhu, but it didn't replace CoC for me. I am well versed in the "pixel bitch" vs. "railroad" issue with clues and its a big problem in game design where mysteries are abundant. The core questions is how much failure is okay?

I am going to say that failure is an option. My game is an RPG on hardcore mode. But I am addressing this issue in my GM mission design tools.

In my game, PCs rarely get a lot of advance notice of a mission so they are thrown into the midst of a situation that is escalating on its own. Since the setting is modern day, the agency will be using satellites, drones and other high tech surveillance at all times, feeding snippets of data to the PCs. The GM can use these bits for when missions go off track or to notify the PCs that their enemy has moved on to the next step of their plan.

Missions are very reactive and the PCs will have to move fast and think fast to put themselves in a pro-active position against their foes. Unlike OD&D which often have static dungeons, ie, the monsters will be there if you leave and come back next week, that isn't the case with spy missions.

In my playtest, the PCs failed to stop the nuke going off in Venice. They did not find the right clues in Sydney so they arrived late in Madagascar where they misinterpreted the clues. They knew the strike was in Italy, but choose Rome instead of Venice to allocate agency resources. By the time they figured out it was Venice, they were mid-air enroute...only to see the mushroom cloud.

In the debriefing post-mission, I revealed where they went wrong and they were so close a couple times, and clearly saw how they misinterpreted the clues in Madagascar.

In my post-playtest analysis, I am doing an autopsy on the clues to see where it could have been clearer, but I don't want to put overemphasis on a single playtest. I certainly need to run the adventure a few more times.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;644149Terror Network is also in that more "ripped from the headlines" and naturalistic zone than some of the other espionage games out there. I would be happy to talk about what i think we may have done right and wrong with it if that helps you with your project.

The only reason I don't own Terror Network is because I want to finish mine before I read yours.

I would LOVE for you to talk about Terror Network.

Quote from: Ronin;644242Im not real big on alignments, but if your going to have them. I definitely think the palladium style are the way to go. Just my opinion.

I will have alignments, but much more the Palladium style. I love the fight of Law vs. Chaos, but not for a spy game. Here, it is more about that one thing that keeps motivating and driving your PC into action, into danger and into the jaws of death. What keeps your PC from giving up?  

Quote from: Ronin;644242Plans are great till everything goes off the rails. But does their need to be rules for it? Not sure.

I am also unsure. The Murphy's Law and Dicing with the Devil are more about the PCs tempting fate. Do you need a bit of luck to save your asses? Dice with the Devil and see if things might get better or worse.

In the playtest, the players were too scared of Mr. Murphy to dare the Dice, but afterwards, they said they probably should have gone for it late in the mission when they sensed the enemy was too far ahead with their plans.
 

Quote from: Ronin;644242Now do like the roll a six instant kill kind of thing. But not knowing what you have in mind for damage dice for what. Have you taken into account that say 1d6 damage is actually 1d5 with that. Is that ok?

I am unsure if its okay. I am still playing around with damage. I am basing my thoughts on damage on how I want players to avoid combat and fear combat. A "fair fight" should never be the first choice in an espionage situation.

I have been a ghostwriter and researcher and in the 90s, I did a project involving research of gun violence, wound recovery in ERs and deaths in ER and part of the comparison/contrast was with battlefield deaths. The stats are weird. Lots of people get shot up lots of time and survive and lots of people get shot once and die. What kills somebody has lots of factors, but guns are really lethal. I want to bring some respect of guns to RPGs.

Quote from: Ronin;644242Maybe instead of instant kill it should force a save or die roll?

This is one of the options for GMs to choose when they define the lethality of their game. You could choose to do a Save vs. Death roll.

One of the things that love about the OSR is the DIY / modify attitude and my game will be modular for the GM. In key areas of the rules, especially lethality, the GM will get to tailor the game to a level that both the GM and his players feel comfortable. Kinda like the old settings on Doom.

Quote from: Ronin;644242Now how would you handle ultra high powered weapons.

I am a sick fuck. Back in the 80s/90s, I watched every Faces of Death and related VHS. I've been a fan of Rotten.com forever and I certainly have seen lots of combat footage from the GWOT and other places on the web.

So yeah, I know what 1 shot 1 kill weapons can do to a human body.

In the game, there will be weapons whose damage is Death. GMs of lower lethality games may choose to allow a Save vs. Death and allow a miraculous miss at the last section action movie style.

In the playtest, they were being attacked by a truck mounted LMG which I have listed as 3x1D6 damage and you die if any of those 3D6 is a 6. Of course, an average hit does 11 points and normals have 1D6 HTK and PCs aren't doing much better at 1st level.

BTW, 3x1D6 means you roll 3D6, but each die is treated as a separate attack, just in case you are wearing armor or have some other defense like hard cover.

Quote from: Ronin;644242Yeah skills is one I keep getting hung up on with my stuff too. Do you have only a couple like microlite20, or do you go crazy palladium on it?

I am carving down the skill list. My goal is to have 20 core skills and each skill will have specialty skill options.  

I like roll under skill systems for D100% percentages, but with a D20, I like to roll high. Back in the old days, our OD&D crew flip flopped on how you made a stat check. Lots of GMs did roll under D20 and lots had roll under 3D6 (4D6 if it was really hard).

I don't like the huge bonuses of D20, nor do I like the lack of things getting easier at higher levels. I do agree with John Wick's assessment that D20 is the game where you are always having to roll over 10. Instead, I want stats to matter, skills to matter, but more than anything I want your level of expertise to matter.

Here's my rationale: anyone can become uberbadass with enough practice and in practice, they excel amazingly BUT the real world isn't practice. In the real world when there are people shooting at you or a timer ticking, its about your confidence in your skill and that confidence is born from excelling in the real world under tremendous pressure (aka, gaining levels from successful missions).

BTW, as for XP, you get 1 XP if you fail a mission and 2 XP if you succeed. You need a number of XP equal to your next level to promote. AKA, 2nd level needs 2 XP, 3rd level needs 5 XP, 4th level needs 9 XP, etc. Advancement is very fast...but death is so common that having a high level character is a pretty awesome accomplishment.

So the math currently is this:
Stat modifier + Skill modifier - Opposition modifier +/- any GM modifier vs. your Saving Throw (16 - current level)

The Opposition Modifier is when your agent is being actively opposed by another agent or powerful enemy operative.  Wanna bluff the secretary? That's great but she has already been intimidated by a Big Scary Agent to not discuss anything with anybody.

The bonus for me by using Saving Throw vs. Target Number is the player knows how successful they will be before they attempt an action and if they learn about a nasty negative modifier, they can deduce that they are being opposed with might be a clue in itself. "Hey, did you notice how that secretary clammed up tight as soon as I mentioned Gibraltar?"

Quote from: Ronin;644242Is that maybe too many HPs? I only say that because at level 5 you might have any where from 5-45 HP's? Seems like that might be a lot. I suppose the instant kill rule kind of levels this out, but I dont know. I guess I would have to see hard damage values.

The HTKs might be too high. I will have to play around with them and the damage numbers. Maybe you get 1D6 + CON mod + Level? I will have to play around with the numbers much more.

It's funny, but I am also working on an "OD&D in Spaaace" and that one is all about high HP, lots of damage dice, big gonzo craziness, etc which makes it fun to write the Spy RPG as a counterpoint.

Quote from: Ronin;644242An idea I'm working on, is what I call riposte.

I am a big fan of ripostes. I discovered them in the Stormbringer RPG and it was a big draw for making swordfights cooler.

In the Spy RPG, in H2H combat, you get to choose your defense option - Dodge, Parry or Counterattack. In counterattack, you will most likely take the blow and maybe deliver one of your own. My only issue so far is that it makes sense you can pull a trigger faster than you can throw a punch so I am dealing with some H2H combat timing issues.

Quote from: Ronin;644259How are you planning on treating armor? Obviously armor is a rare thing in this genre. But will you have it modify AC? Or will it absorb damage like in CP2020? Or will it be a combination of both kinda like Palladium?

In the rules right now, here's how I have a Kevlar vest working. You get -2 DEX modifier, +4 AC and if the dice roll is under 15 (18 with helm) the Kevlar soaks up 1D6 damage per die of the attack.  It makes Kevlar vests bulky so you dodge like crap, it affects your shooting, but saves lives from most small arms attacks. So if the LMG hits you on 12 doing 3x1D6 damage, you get to roll 1D6 vs. each of those 3 dice to soak that damage.

Also, hard cover works like armor, except is generally much more ablative, so walls, doors, chairs mostly get chopped apart if they take some damage for you.

Quote from: Spinachcat;645126I agree, but based on my research, I am very unsure if my mindset for what I personally want out of a spy game is in sync with what I have heard over the years from the espionage RPG fandom.

This is the case for me as well. It isnt so much about tailoring the game to the entire espionage audience against your own prefernces but finding the group of fans who resemble you and also getting a general sense of what will cause the most problems in terms of design for the broader audience. For example gumshoe came up and with it the topic of failure. You and I seem to be on the same page there. But when I released Terror Network, i was not terribly familiar with the other side of the debate (because it was never a problem for me). It helps if you know that going in so you can be clear that you are not trying to solve the problems of gumshoe and that you consider failure to be on the table. This was something people had a lot of questions about after TN came out, because we didnt address it in the core book.

QuoteLots of the espionage RPG fandom really enjoy the "realism" that heavy real world detailed game supplements offer. AKA, what would a 1976 KGB agent actually have access to? What would they carry on a mission? That kind of detail isn't something I enjoy or want in my games.

This is true, and they will also not hesitate to let you know when you are wrong on the details. But there is also a group of espionage fans that are more into the Savage Worlds style of play and adventure who are not as concerned with realism and more focused on being James Bond.

QuoteI am familiar with Gumshoe and I enjoyed Trail of Cthulhu, but it didn't replace CoC for me. I am well versed in the "pixel bitch" vs. "railroad" issue with clues and its a big problem in game design where mysteries are abundant. The core questions is how much failure is okay?

I am going to say that failure is an option. My game is an RPG on hardcore mode. But I am addressing this issue in my GM mission design tools.

In my game, PCs rarely get a lot of advance notice of a mission so they are thrown into the midst of a situation that is escalating on its own. Since the setting is modern day, the agency will be using satellites, drones and other high tech surveillance at all times, feeding snippets of data to the PCs. The GM can use these bits for when missions go off track or to notify the PCs that their enemy has moved on to the next step of their plan.

Missions are very reactive and the PCs will have to move fast and think fast to put themselves in a pro-active position against their foes. Unlike OD&D which often have static dungeons, ie, the monsters will be there if you leave and come back next week, that isn't the case with spy missions.

In my playtest, the PCs failed to stop the nuke going off in Venice. They did not find the right clues in Sydney so they arrived late in Madagascar where they misinterpreted the clues. They knew the strike was in Italy, but choose Rome instead of Venice to allocate agency resources. By the time they figured out it was Venice, they were mid-air enroute...only to see the mushroom cloud.

In the debriefing post-mission, I revealed where they went wrong and they were so close a couple times, and clearly saw how they misinterpreted the clues in Madagascar.

In my post-playtest analysis, I am doing an autopsy on the clues to see where it could have been clearer, but I don't want to put overemphasis on a single playtest. I certainly need to run the adventure a few more times.

I take a similar approach, feeling that what makes the investigation or mission exciting is that you might fail. Also, not being a slave to everything you have on paper is important. Chances are high the players will come up with a plausible solution you haven't thought of. So I try to be open to those when they arise. This isn't about saying "yes" to everything. But about saying "yes" when the solution ought to yield results.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;645154I It helps if you know that going in so you can be clear that you are not trying to solve the problems of gumshoe and that you consider failure to be on the table. This was something people had a lot of questions about after TN came out, because we didnt address it in the core book.

I am a big fan of Optional Rules. I like GM advice to give me various ways to alter how the game is played in order to modify it for my home crew. I definitely will be addressing the Failure Options and the Clue Options in detail because while the core game mechanics will reflect My One True Way, I want GMs to have the tools to make the game reflect their vision of how a spy game should flow at their table.

Depending on the type of villain being faced, the enemy may even leave Obvious Clues which the PCs will then have to determine if they are real or fake. So PCs may have to ask if a certain clue was too easy to find.

One of my optional rules is "Breadcrumb Trail" and if a GM wants to give PCs a free clue to keep the game rolling, that's cool if that's what works best with that table of players.

But that said, one of my goals for this game is "RPG on Hardcore Mode" because I do feel the pendulum has swung too far into the "Everybody Wins!" mentality for games. But PCs still get XP for failed missions to lessen the blow.

So technically, you can reach 10th level by never succeeding and blowing every mission....but hey, secret agents are government workers so that kinda works!

But there will also be promotion/reputation awards for succeeding missions and for failing too many missions as well. A PC of lower level with more successes than failures will get more goodies than a higher level PC who fails too often.