I played in my regular D&D 3.5 game last week. We had a lot of fun, but it also gave me a lot to think about.

First off, we had a nice beefy combat, which is heartening as it may indicate that the GM is in fact listening to people's input regarding what they'd like to see more of in the game (which has been an issue in the past). My brother and I had both requested "more fighting" (well, to be precise, it was more like "in the absence of engaging player-empowered story, more fighting"), and Joe delivered. Cool. At first I thought we were in for another limp session, retrieving an item from a friendly wizard. But then a bunch of evil magical creatures attacked the wizard's tower, and it was ON!

There was a Succubus, who set an Ettin on us, and then when we killed the Ettin and pursued her, she summoned a Vrock, which is a big vulture Demon. And we kicked their asses.

In ons sense, the fight was pretty tough. Both the Succubus and Vrock have hella resistances and immunities, and were shrugging off a lot of what we threw at 'em. On the other hand, all the monsters dropped pretty easily, if sometimes slowly, and I didn't really feel properly challenged.

Our party's big, seven total, all level 6, consisting of a Warforged Barbarian, Changeling Ranger, Human Fighter/Mageslayer, monkey-man Scout, Human Cleric/Stormlord, Human something-or-other (she won't tell anyone; seems to have rogue-like abilities with some spellcasting power), and Human Warmage (that's me). But it was more than that. The demons in question are higher Challenge Rating than our level, and should have had us jumping. But the DM just didn't utilize them very well. The Ettin charged straight at us, we hit it a bunch, it fell down. Later the demons stood in place and attacked until beaten. The Monster Manual entries even have a wealth of tactics info to be mined, none of which was used and most of which flatly contradicted by Joe's tactics. Things like, "Ettins prefer to ambush their victims rather than charge into a straight fight." The Succubus is supposed to be cowardly and underhanded, and try to embrace enemies to drain energy. Nothing like that happened. Hell, I even forgot the Vrock had wings. An Aerial charge with Power Attack could have really fucked us up. It would've been awesome.

I also had a weird vibe amongst my teammates, too. Everyone in our group likes to talk big about balls-to-the-wall combat, playing smart and kicking ass. But when we finally do get a nice challenge to sink our teeth into, everyone's playing sort of obliviously and simply, with no thought to teamwork or anything. Like, when the Ettin charged, it caught our Ranger off by himself. As we ran up to help him, I cast a Fireball at the giant and used Bracers of Entangling Blast for less damage, but an Entangling effect (half speed, penalty to attack and defense) so the Ranger could get away before the Ettin clobbered him. And he did, but then two other guys ran right up to the range of the Ettin's clubs. They didn't even get to attack; they spent all their turn running. All they did was set themselves up to be pounded, harder than if they'd hung back and let the Ettin close to them, and so my Entangling Blast was kinda wasted. Sure, it got a good reaction around the room as my first time using it, lots of "cool!" and "good one, Joel." But it was kinda hollow, since it didn't really help.

There was stuff like that throughout the session. Like, I had my guy call out to the Ranger for info on the Ettin (i.e. Have him make a Knowledge: Nature check for strengths and weaknesses). Not only did the Ranger not have any ranks in Knowledge: Nature (!) but everyone was just kinda like, "it's an Ettin, just hit it." Well excuse me, but I don't know an Ettin from Adam, and my reading of D&D is that without K: Nature I'm supposed to assume my character doesn't either.

The most awkward tactical moment came when I cast a Flaming Sphere and rolled it into the Vrock's space. It wasn't always enough to overcome the Vrock's Fire Resistance, but I was dealing a bit of damage most turns, in addition to pounding it with more spells. Sound strategy, right? Well, the DM ruled that the sphere was abstructing view of the Vrock. So ranged attackers had to move to one side in order to shoot it. And everyone started complaining that my sphere wasn't doing any good and was in fact hampering us and I should dispell it. I was like, "hell, no, we need all the damage we can get." I eventually managed to convince the group that no, the Sphere wasn't actually hindering us, since the shooters were able to get clear shots from the side (at no time had the sphere prevented a shot or caused it to miss), and it WAS doing a small amount of damage. So the Sphere was filed under "useful, but annoying."

The whole evening was some kind of Bizarro experience. These guys all talk tough about tactics and action, and I always felt like the odd man out, creating friction on the game with my desire for Story, Story, Story. But once I relaxed and decided to embrace the action-fest, it was like I was almost the only tactically-thinking player in the whole room, GM included. Nobody was going "hey! Stop thinking tactically!" but everyone kinda seemed like like tactics were a new, strange and confusing idea that they weren't quite sure how to deal with.

I'm ripping on the players pretty hard, so let me take time out and stress that I did have fun, moreso than I have in a long time in that campaign. It was just kinda. . .lacking, like a friendly basketball game that your team played shit on. . .you go home having enjoyed yourself, but the back of your mind all the shit that should have gone down better is nagging at you.

Also, full disclosure: I myself got a total pass from the GM, when I was contemplating using Shocking grasp just moments after establishing through my Knowledge: Planes check that the demons were immune to Electricity. He warned me and I changed my tactic. So it wasn't a case of "everyone's dumb, I'm smart". . .it was more like tactics in general weren't rewarded around the table, through positive or negative reinforcement. The only exception I can think of is maybe sending our Ranger to the tower when we spotted the Demons, to warn the Wizard of the attack. Which took him out of the fight for several rounds, but brought with him the firepower of the Wizard. So there was a nice cause and effect thing there. But I'm not convinced anyone was thinking, "hey, let's sacrifice several rounds of Ranger power to gain a couple of rounds of Wizard power!" or that the GM was thinking in terms of "reward decision with tactical benefits." It almost seems incidental that the action helped us in the fight.

So I dunno. I'm not sure if I'm mistaken about the players wanting tactical challenges, or if they need some time to adjust to the possibilities now that we're finally pouring on the action, or what. All comments/questions welcome. At the base of it I'm just wanting to reflect on the experience and see what I can come up with to apply to future games with this group.

Peace,
-Joel

your greater numbers i'm sure helped where tactics didn't come into play.

the 3.x game i ran went the opposite.  at first it was just me as DM and two other guys.  one played a paladin and was a good little tank.  the other guy was primarily a rogue, with a great ability to tumble around the field for max benefit.    they were able to take on foes higher than their CRs by keeping the enemy where they wanted them, not the other way around.  combats didn't last very long, between the paladin's damage-dealing and the rogue's sneak attacks.  of course, they grew to hate the times i brought in constructs or undead. . .

The way I see it, your problem is that neither the DM nor the other players are very good at tactics, even though they (at least the players) wish to indulge in them.
Now, if the DM knew his stuff, he could educate the players through OOC explanation and chat, through example demonstrated by NPCs and enemies, and sometimes by simply forcing the players to demonstrate tactics if they want to save their characters.
However, since it looks like the DM is not up to the job, I guess your only option is to take matters into your own hands. Just start up an honest, friendly, open discussion at an opportunate time - not when everyone's ready to start playing, then it would be perceived as a detraction from the game -, and voice your concerns. Suggest that you could have OOC "debriefing" discussions after battle. Or if you feel like you won't offend the DM by encroaching on his territory, offer to run some heavily combat-oriented scenarios sometime, explicitly set up to demonstrate and demand tactical thinking.
If you do the latter, I suggest you do it with very low level characters, or preferably even in a different, less rules-heavy edition of D&D. Why? Two reasons:
One, power inflation is pretty heavy in D&D. High-level characters often don't really NEED sound tactics, since their raw power output and huge HP total will see them through most situations anyway. Low-level characters NEED to use tactics.
Two, 3E has cultivated a very, for lack of a better word, metagaming mentality. In most combat-oriented 3E discussions I hear and read, tactics boil down to the idea of who has what feats, spells and special abilities, and how they combine them into combos the enemies cannot defend against. This might be a valid definition of "tactics" in Magic the Gathering, but not in a roleplaying game. RPG tactics should incorporate factors that also exist in real life. Concentrating firepower, using and manipulating terrain features for advantage, supreme intel and positioning, misdirection of the enemy - these can only be learned if the ruleset encourages their use. And the more depends on the mechanical aspect of the characters' innate abilities, the less important such considerations are. As long as players can get an easy +16 to their attack rolls thanks to their clever combination of Tentacle Grafts, the Fantastik Pankrator Prestige Class and the Supreme Suplex Feat from the Complete Random Splatbook, they just won't feel the inclination to spend time and energy luring the enemy into that two-storey room where archers might or might not get a measly +2 to their shots from the balcony, depending on whether the DM is willing to give an ad-hoc bonus for the clever thinking.

Yeah, that's a pretty good idea, and I'd say you're right, it's up to me. I'm gonna ease into this pretty gently, 'cause if Joe is actually responding to feedback and giving me more of what I want, I don't wanna slap him down and go "You suck! Do it better!" Maybe I should focus first on the player tactics, froma standpoint of "let's work together" and not "you're dumb." Like, "Hey, you know when I cast that Entangling blast everyone was so impressed with? It'd be really cool if folks took advantage of that and let the enemy come to them. Power combo, baby!"

Peace,
-Joel

My money says the girl that won't tell you what she is a beguiler.

Huh. I dunno, I don't think she's read PHB II. But maybe.

What Premier said.  Part of it is being unfamiliar with tactical play another is this encounter didn't seem to need anything more than an exchange of swings.

A situation that is near impossible to overcome by just charging is more what you need to get that tactical rush I think you are looking for.  That is you will need surprise, choosing the ground of your fighhting to make your chance to hit better and the enemies lower, taking advantage of isolating the enemy and defeating them in detail.


I'd suggest looking for a group of 12-18 monsters (assuming your party has 6 PCs) that are the base CR for your group and then having the encounter have 3-5 of these groups plus a few heavy back up creatures.

Part of the fun on the tactical challenge part, is absent good tactics you are looking at a TPK, and/or you will suffer such attrition you'll not make it out of the adventure alive.  If you are OK with death being a very real possibility then you should be able to get to the tactical kinds of combats you want.

Heh, I was in a group like that, here's what I tried.

(1) Play hardball
(2) Wait for the GM to compensate for my tactical synergy
(3) let 'em fend for themselves

It was funny to see the wheels fall off. My character was happily bringing a PC thief to justice while some fourty squares away the blunder patrol tore themselves to shreads. They lined up for lightning, clumped up for fireballs and cast obscuring mist to repell skirmishers. My only regret was that the attackers ran away at the sight of 5 dead PCs. :mad:

On the other hand, we survivors got to split something like (5 x 11,000gp) worth of loot.