I blame it on Brendan for reigniting the spark with his talk of wuxia stuff.

Basic precept: AD&D 1e OA is crap, and D&D 3.0e OA (aka L5R d20) is also crap.

I am really, really torn between using a TSR-era D&D engine, or the mighty Runequest 6.

For a D&D-powered Japanese myth-inspired game (a.k.a. Oriental Adventures: the Homebrewed, Suck-Free Edition), I'd posit a Japan-like fantasy nation reeling in the collapse of a China-like fantasy empire, filling in for the faux-Western Europe and the faux-Roman Empire of classic, plain vanilla D&D. This would really play like a straight-up D&D hexcrawl with East Asian flavor bits. I'd reskin Fighters and Cavaliers as samurai, Clerics as yamabushi (Buddhist warrior-priests), Monks as sohei (Shinto fighting monks), Assassins as ninja, Thieves as yakuza and Magic-Users as creepy Daoist sorcerers. I suppose I'd still need a class for Shinto miracle-workers.

For a hardcore, close-to-history game (i.e. doing to Japanese history and myth what Ars Magica did to European history and myth, minus the wizards >>> everyone else bits), I'd probably use Runequest 6. I'd use Sorcery with the due reskinnings to cover flashier magic out of Chinese/Daoist tradition; Folk and/or Spirit Magic for Shinto miracles (though admittedly my understanding of Shinto is limited, so more research might be necesary); and Mysticism for ass-kicking ascetics of all stripes. I might consider Theism for certain varieties of Buddhist and Shinto thaumaturgy.

What do y'all think?

Quote from: The Butcher;718455I blame it on Brendan for reigniting the spark with his talk of wuxia stuff.

Basic precept: AD&D 1e OA is crap, and D&D 3.0e OA (aka L5R d20) is also crap.

I am really, really torn between using a TSR-era D&D engine, or the mighty Runequest 6.

For a D&D-powered Japanese myth-inspired game (a.k.a. Oriental Adventures: the Homebrewed, Suck-Free Edition), I'd posit a Japan-like fantasy nation reeling in the collapse of a China-like fantasy empire, filling in for the faux-Western Europe and the faux-Roman Empire of classic, plain vanilla D&D. This would really play like a straight-up D&D hexcrawl with East Asian flavor bits. I'd reskin Fighters and Cavaliers as samurai, Clerics as yamabushi (Buddhist warrior-priests), Monks as sohei (Shinto fighting monks), Assassins as ninja, Thieves as yakuza and Magic-Users as creepy Daoist sorcerers. I suppose I'd still need a class for Shinto miracle-workers.

For a hardcore, close-to-history game (i.e. doing to Japanese history and myth what Ars Magica did to European history and myth, minus the wizards >>> everyone else bits), I'd probably use Runequest 6. I'd use Sorcery with the due reskinnings to cover flashier magic out of Chinese/Daoist tradition; Folk and/or Spirit Magic for Shinto miracles (though admittedly my understanding of Shinto is limited, so more research might be necesary); and Mysticism for ass-kicking ascetics of all stripes. I might consider Theism for certain varieties of Buddhist and Shinto thaumaturgy.

What do y'all think?

Runequest has a much more flexible spell system for this sort of thing, so I would be inclined to use that. But I also think a D&D powered game would work (i tweaked OA for wuxia last year and retained many of the japanese elements because one of my players wanted to be a samurai, with some adjustment and use of optional rulebooks it worked quite well).

For Shinto, i have found Shinto The Kami Way by Sokoyo Ono and Shinto in History (edited by Breen and Teeuwen) work well together if you are doing research.

I would advocate for RQ6 as well. If you want a look at some possible ways of handling the setting, you might want to take a look at the old Land of Ninja boxed set for RQIII and maybe even Samurai of Legend. I know Mongoose's editing and playtesting track record is a point of contention for some people, but at least by looking at their book you'd know what NOT to do

Later!

Harl

>I'd posit a Japan-like fantasy nation reeling in the collapse of a China-like fantasy empire, filling in for the faux-Western Europe and the faux-Roman Empire of classic, plain vanilla D&D.

But if you want to do Japan, why are you using western Europe and the Roman empire as inspiration?

I vote for RuneQuest.

As for Japan? Go historical with the dial turned right up. I've said it before in places (probably here), but usagi yojimbo is supposed to be well researched. Take out the animals and perhaps start there for broad brush strokes.

Don't forget too that Japan was closed to the outside world for a long time. No reason why your game world can't follow a similar pattern. It would allow for its own range of tensions to be brought out/xenophobia/outsiders/the other (be it Faux-Chinese, Europeans, Ghosts, Spirits, Monsters etc).

I mean, there is tons of material worth looking at on these tiny islands. I used Yurei Attack! The Japanese Ghost Survival Guide to inform some sessions (headless ghost of a samurai during a zombie survival game). There's some good stuff in that.

I will have a look and see if I have anything else in a bit.

EDIT

Have a look for Japanese Mythology A to Z - Jeremy Roberts (Chelsea House Publishers). As noted on "GoodReads.com" - This is a good reference guide to Japanese mythology. It contains descriptions of the major players in the Shinto and Japanese Buddhist pantheons, summaries of the main stories recorded in the Kojiki and other Japanese myths and folk-stories. It is well illustrated.

Well I studied Japan extensively in academia (a major & related minor), so my first question is which period? I am assuming Heian from what you mentioned, most likely post-900s after the fall of the Tang dynasty in China. It corresponds to the most of your dials.

That said, Heian period is far more alien than the Kamakura and Muromachi assumptions we often hold when we think of a Japanese setting pastiche. For the familiar tropes, I'd go L5R, especially the early books just for the flavor. Of the two systems mentioned... depends on what you want out of the setting. I'd do D&D out of familiarity, the fun of punching & wrestling tables, and the expectation that players want a bit more heroics mixed in.

Yet I totally applaud the idea of Heian setting. But at that you'd retire ideas of samurai, most ninja legends, Buddhism and courtly manners would reign heavily, extremely restricted movement (non-existent for noble women) and far fewer wars. Like I said, it would break assumed tropes so hard as to be alien.

It's a pity gwailo is a chinese word, not a japanese one, because it'd be awesome to have a setting where every foreigner was honestly and literally a ghost.

I mean, you still have your island nation that gets visited by these strange foreigners who have guns and a weird religion and shit...but they're also all dead. They're freaking pale ghosts and you can literally see through them because they're transparent.

Quote from: Axiomatic;719342>I'd posit a Japan-like fantasy nation reeling in the collapse of a China-like fantasy empire, filling in for the faux-Western Europe and the faux-Roman Empire of classic, plain vanilla D&D.

But if you want to do Japan, why are you using western Europe and the Roman empire as inspiration?

Because D&D to a large degree hinges on the idea that the Golden Age is gone and the present is a post-apocalyptic, "points of light" crapsack; post-Crisis of the Third Century Rome being a prime example.

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;719358I mean, there is tons of material worth looking at on these tiny islands. I used Yurei Attack! The Japanese Ghost Survival Guide to inform some sessions (headless ghost of a samurai during a zombie survival game). There's some good stuff in that.

I will have a look and see if I have anything else in a bit.

EDIT

Have a look for Japanese Mythology A to Z - Jeremy Roberts (Chelsea House Publishers). As noted on "GoodReads.com" - This is a good reference guide to Japanese mythology. It contains descriptions of the major players in the Shinto and Japanese Buddhist pantheons, summaries of the main stories recorded in the Kojiki and other Japanese myths and folk-stories. It is well illustrated.

Thanks! I'll look into both.

Quote from: Opaopajr;719369Yet I totally applaud the idea of Heian setting. But at that you'd retire ideas of samurai, most ninja legends, Buddhism and courtly manners would reign heavily, extremely restricted movement (non-existent for noble women) and far fewer wars. Like I said, it would break assumed tropes so hard as to be alien.

I must've done a poor job of expounding two distinct ideas.

One: a D&D-powered game which, IMO, requires a very specific set of historical circumstances to work. Namely, a world that's seen a Golden Age of civilization come and go; and the PCs live under the shadow of fallen empires, whether delving beneath the earth to salvage its treasures, or wandering the land to right wrongs and protect common folks who live at the mercy of monsters and bandits and petty warlords.

The Heian period, as you've said, offers the right historical background for this sort of game, but does away with the tropes and aesthetics we want to play with. So, the idea here, to get the tropes of D&D lined up with the tropes of chanbara, would be to cook up an ersatz-Japan of my own.

Two: a Runequest-driven game set in Tokugawa Japan or thereabouts, with the addition of discrete but significant fantastic, supernatural bits (I'd like to do to C16 Japan what Ars Magica did to C12 Europe). This is what I'm more inclined to do right now, using mostly Sengoku (and now BarefootGaijin's recommendations) as a source.

What do you think? Which would you rather play or run?

The big mythology book is going to be dry. From a player's perspective, grab material from Usagi yojimbo, Lone Wolf and Cub, and gulp even Shogun.

Stick your game somewhere in the 1600s and have the players working for a Daimyo, protecting their assets, collecting debts and uncovering the supernatural and fighting off monsters. Later (in true old school D&D fashion) the characters can move up the political chain, move to overthrow a Daimyo, perhaps extract family members from the fictional capital because the Shogunate (or its analogue) has fallen under the spell of a great supernatural/external power and they have to end up fighting to save the country, etc etc.

All the time you ground it in specific detail that, if asked for, is as authentic as you can make it, and will give you something to research/learn/teach yourself between games!!

Also, there is nothing to say you can't go for supernatural dungeon bashes by having the characters travel into other spiritual realms with dungeons being representative of different elements of nature, or even have more powerful spirits or creatures building strongholds of some kind.

More homework!
Key Concepts in Eastern Philosophy (Oliver Leaman) provides an extensive glossary of the main terms and concepts used in Eastern philosophy. The book includes definitions of philosophical ideas linked to the national traditions of:
• Persia
• the Islamic world
• Japan
• Korea
• India
• China
• Tibet
including concepts from:
• Zoroastrianism
• Sufism
• Confucianism
• Taoism
• Hinduism
• Islam
• Shintoism
• Buddhism
Each entry includes a guide for further reading and critical analysis, is cross-referenced with associated concepts and is in easy-to-use A—Z format.

It is on the pile of "things to read at some point, eventually, in the future, one day, some day when"....

But again, for player purposes: wikipedia.

Personally, I'd do total Heian period. It'd be almost as alien as Tekumel.

-Then you can have explorers violate those gigantic Kofun burial tombs (sometimes even whole artificial islands) shaped like keyholes.

-You could introduce from the ancient Jomon period lost dogu statues that look downright spooky, like archaic Greek kouroi -- and call to mind golems and aliens more than a little.

-Noble women you never see because they are protected indoors under 100 lbs. of expensive fabric.

-Written messages where the quality of the paper and emotiveness of the handwriting means more than the essentially illegible cursive ideograms -- of a script hardly anyone really knows.

-Anything beyond the reach of sakura and iris blossoms, meaning civilization, is a nightmarish wilderness of ancient beings of immense presence, foreigners, laborers, and mud.

However, I also know that I am not the norm when it comes to players. They would probably want all those familiar Japanese tropes. So I would have to say the latter choice would be my cautious first pitch.

Also there is the lethality issue: D&D, L5R, and RQ are all lethal in various ways. Some have more or less room for heroics as well. (D&D hits its stride around 3rd lvl; L5R has dice explosions; etc.) And given the unlikely use of familiar shield wall and pole arm tactics during the Heian, RQ might be the most banal and thus worst fit for what players are expecting.

If you are going gritty lethal system, I would use it for the more alien of the two settings. When combat takes a back seat due to RQ lethality (and lack of familiar tactics), the alien wonder of the Heian would make an awesome backdrop. That said, it sounds like post-Kamakura Japan with RQ is where your heart is at -- a GM runs best what they feel inspired to run.

None of these are specifically Japanese, but if you want inspiration for wuxia, you could look at the 2nd ed. AD&D-era Dragonfist or the very similar (IIRC free) retroclone... gosh, I just can't remember the name right now, I'll check it for you if I can.

Also, Sine Nomine's Red Tide setting is a really good treatise on how to build an Oriental (though, again, not strictly Japanese) campaign on the foundations of old-school D&D.

Thanks for the comprehensive advice, gentlemen.

This one's going to sit on the back burner for the time being (I've got a lot on my plate right now) so this should give me some time to sift through your recommended readings and think things over.

I mean, I'm still sifting through my self-selected bibliography for my CoC game.

Quote from: Premier;720344None of these are specifically Japanese, but if you want inspiration for wuxia, you could look at the 2nd ed. AD&D-era Dragonfist or the very similar (IIRC free) retroclone... gosh, I just can't remember the name right now, I'll check it for you if I can.

Also, Sine Nomine's Red Tide setting is a really good treatise on how to build an Oriental (though, again, not strictly Japanese) campaign on the foundations of old-school D&D.

Dragon Fist and Flying Swordsmen are pretty cool. Maybe good vehicles for Opaopa's Heian game?

And Red Tide is... something else. An amazing something else that I just have to run some day, but something else nevertheless.

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;719358As for Japan? Go historical with the dial turned right up. I've said it before in places (probably here), but usagi yojimbo is supposed to be well researched. Take out the animals and perhaps start there for broad brush strokes.

There is a LOT of Musashi in Usagi Yojimbo. The movie is pretty good, though long (cut up into three parts in US released version), but based on an incredibly long literary work.

That period, although later than has been discussed here, is ripe with possibility. Three very different men who could end up shaping the future of the country - which was still an incredibly divisive one at that time.