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Notes towards a critique of embedded themes in Forge narrativist games

Started by droog, June 28, 2007, 10:00:43 AM

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droog

#30
June 30, 2007, 07:03:42 PM
Quote from: Settembrini...and it doesn´t matter in Traveller, where they come from. Nearly all Trav adventuring is about avoiding real work, and getting money in different ways, often illegal.
I submit that 'criminal' and 'petty-bourgeois' are not incompatible categories.
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

droog

#31
June 30, 2007, 07:10:02 PM
Quote from: Pierce InverarityA true political critique, as we all know, operates at the level of form, of the structure that produces any and all content to begin with. In certain games that structure is called Nar, and as we also know it produces sci-fi, modern horror and chivalric content with equal (= equally tacky and petty bourgeois) ease.
I am compelled to point out, Professor, that there is no such thing as 'Nar' structure. It is essential to compare specific forms.

QuoteRe. actual play being petty bourgeois, I hate acknowledging this, needless to say. But all I can muster as defense is to point out, with D. Diederichsen, that what's left today of the grande bourgeoisie of yesteryear is nothing but table manners anyway.

So, actual play is petty bourgeois insofar as nearly everything is... with the exception, mind you, of Bohemian subcultures, dandyism and all the rest of it--but for now, that's limited to pop music circles.
Postmodernism will solve all your problems, Professor.

I look forward to your Deleuzeian treatise.
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

Settembrini

#32
June 30, 2007, 07:10:52 PM
Well, your categories are now muddled up, droog.
Are we talking you an upward-mobile model in in game content?

Or are we talking the process of play as an act of kleinbürgelich escapism?

Because the latter is basically moot.

Or can we look at the process of distancing oneself from the escapist activities via self delusionary exploration of "important themes and questions", and how utterly tacky that is.
If there can\'t be a TPK against the will of the players it\'s not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

droog

#33
June 30, 2007, 07:13:39 PM
Quote from: SettembriniWell, your categories are now muddled up, droog.
Are we talking you an upward-mobile model in in game content?

Or are we talking the process of play as an act of kleinbürgelich escapism?

Because the latter is basically moot.

Or can we look at the process of distancing oneself from the escapist activities via self delusionary exploration of "important themes and questions", and how utterly tacky that is.
I am eager to examine all sides of the question, Professor. It will, of course, be necessary to separate rhetoric from reality.
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

Pierce Inverarity

#34
June 30, 2007, 07:21:43 PM
Quote from: droogI am compelled to point out, Professor, that there is no such thing as 'Nar' structure.

There are rules that "encourage" (zzzzzz...) or "foster" (bleargh) "story," or "drive it ever forward" (gahh). Rules = structure.

QuotePostmodernism will solve all your problems, Professor.

I look forward to your Deleuzeian treatise.

Not to be anal (yeah right), but Deleuze is not a "postmodernist." There are no French "postmodernists." Postmodernism is an invention of Anglophone academia, Lyotard's (often misunderstood) little book notwithstanding.
Ich habe mir schon sehr lange keine Gedanken mehr über Bleistifte gemacht.--Settembrini

droog

#35
June 30, 2007, 07:23:53 PM
You know, there is no word for 'kitsch' in Japanese. I feel that that is the sense in which there are no postmodernists in  France.
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

David R

#36
June 30, 2007, 08:12:53 PM
Quote from: James J SkachWow..ummm..If I only had a brain...

:D

droog, since this discussion is going down a familiar route, is my point relevent now?

Comparing D&D and Traveller to Sorceror is just another example of the disingenuity that threads like these breed. A better comparison in terms of structure (and perhaps embedded themes and whether the game achieves it's stated goals) would be, I think, Unknown Armies the game of Power & Consequence.

But only participants who place value on terms like Nar , Adventure & Thematic - all problematic because of their lack of connection to reality - would argue about something that most gamers take for granted -that most if not all games have themes and it's only a matter of preference that separates why some games are played whilst others are not.

Regards,
David R

Pseudoephedrine

#37
June 30, 2007, 10:46:52 PM
I'll just jump in to point out that the class categories being used here are archaic. Characters are just capital, _players_, on the other hand, take on the aspect of members of the managerial class, using instrumental reason and technical expertise to control the use of capital that they are responsible for. The responsibility is independent of any possible "ownership" they might have of that capital (as for example, when one player plays the character of another player because they are absent).

Edited for clarity
Running
The Pernicious Light, or The Wreckers of Sword Island;
A Goblin\'s Progress, or Of Cannons and Canons;
An Oration on the Dignity of Tash, or On the Elves and Their Lies
All for S&W Complete
Playing: Dark Heresy, WFRP 2e

"Elves don\'t want you cutting down trees but they sell wood items, they don\'t care about the forests, they\'\'re the fuckin\' wood mafia." -Anonymous

droog

#38
July 01, 2007, 05:16:12 AM
Certainly an idea worth considering, Prof. Pseudoephedrine; although it seems we find the middle classes at the end of every road.
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

Settembrini

#39
July 01, 2007, 05:20:36 AM
Well you wanted to sell us Dr. Faustus as something special.
You shot yourself in the foot in that regard.

@Pierce: What´s a "Bildungsbürger" in english?

EDIT: droog, please structure your line of argumentation, so that we can seperate the five degrees of tackyness from each other. As playing RPGs is in itself petit-bourgeious, the "Everything at once" approach doesn´t help at all.
If there can\'t be a TPK against the will of the players it\'s not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

droog

#40
July 01, 2007, 05:27:06 AM
Quote from: SettembriniWell you wanted to sell us Dr. Faustus as something special.
You shot yourself in the foot in that regard.
How so, Professor?
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

Settembrini

#41
July 01, 2007, 05:30:46 AM
Because it´s not.
If there can\'t be a TPK against the will of the players it\'s not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

droog

#42
July 01, 2007, 05:37:02 AM
Quote from: SettembriniEDIT: droog, please structure your line of argumentation, so that we can seperate the five degrees of tackyness from each other. As playing RPGs is in itself petit-bourgeious, the "Everything at once" approach doesn´t help at all.
Would you like to lend me your assistance in this project, Professor? I can't promise you much apart from a free lunch.
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

droog

#43
July 01, 2007, 05:51:09 AM
Now, on the matter of Doctor Faustus; while a 16th-century play by Marlowe may certainly be one of the lesser lights of the English canon, it is difficult to see it as popular or kitsch. I can only assume that my literary education has some way to go.

In point of fact, Edwards cites Medea as the most important single reference in his list (p 21). But I do not understand your harping on the point, Prof. Settembrini. I believe I already mentioned the middlebrow nature of Edwards' reading list earlier.
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

Kyle Aaron

#44
July 01, 2007, 06:37:12 AM
Quote from: droogCertainly an idea worth considering, Prof. Pseudoephedrine; although it seems we find the middle classes at the end of every road.
Them again? Can't we go to the beach next time, dad?
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