Never Say Never Again

The Yann Waters · November 15, 2006, 02:58:25 PM

Quote from: StuartYour comment that it's not gussied up enough might be a good one -- particularly if that's part of the appeal for Nobilis fans.

The affected style and all that sidebar nanofiction are definitely part of the allure, yes. You get a feel for the world even without any lengthy exposition.

RPGPundit · November 15, 2006, 05:27:04 PM

Its better written than the original, but then a retarded groundskeeper's diary entry about how he loves his duck would be a better written RPG material than the original, too. So that doesn't really say much.

But it also doesn't really resolve anything. The biggest thing is that you stopped calling it a "law". Which means its nothing more than a piece of advice now, which means its fairly self-evident and pointless.

RPGPundit

Blackleaf · November 15, 2006, 09:32:41 PM

Quote from: RPGPunditBut it also doesn't really resolve anything. The biggest thing is that you stopped calling it a "law". Which means its nothing more than a piece of advice now, which means its fairly self-evident and pointless.

The advice that by avoiding explicitly saying "no" you encourage more creativity and contributions to the narrative from your players isn't necessarily obvious to novice GMs, and is *very* important advice for games with a greater focus on improvisation (eg. TheatreSports style). For a game with a greater focus on tactics, and less focus on improv, it's less valuable advice.

Will · November 21, 2006, 04:09:19 PM

The biggest problem with Nobilis is that a lot of people are really really piss-poor readers.

Balbinus · November 21, 2006, 04:24:55 PM

I fail to see any problems with Nobilis that could not easily be resolved by simply not playing it, if one does not like it.

James McMurray · November 21, 2006, 04:50:30 PM

No! That doesn't work! You can't truly be a man unless you revile everything you even mildly dislike!

Geez... What's wrong with you?

edit: Oops, almost forgot: AND BESIDES MAN! IF WE DON'T SHOUT IT DOWN, NOBILIS MIGHT WIN THE WAR!!!!!

Balbinus · November 21, 2006, 04:56:52 PM

Quote from: James McMurrayNo! That doesn't work! You can't truly be a man unless you revile everything you even mildly dislike!

Geez... What's wrong with you?

edit: Oops, almost forgot: AND BESIDES MAN! IF WE DON'T SHOUT IT DOWN, NOBILIS MIGHT WIN THE WAR!!!!!

I win the war every Monday night when I have a good game.

Last night's game was great, so I won.

James McMurray · November 21, 2006, 08:37:18 PM

That's fine. As long as you were playing areal game like D&D or Amber. Anything else and you're destroying the hobby.

T-Willard · November 21, 2006, 10:05:49 PM

I don't see the big deal about what the OP had in it.

As a matter of fact, it wasn't even anything new.

Who here remembers the 2E AD&D blue books? There was one full of advice for GM's, and one of the chapters suggested pretty much the same thing that the OP has in his post.

There has been multiple Dragon magazine articles regarding the same thing.

Many of the better GM's I know don't say: "You can't do it..." unless it is completely ludricious, but instead say: "OK, let's start making the rolls to see how you do."

I don't see why everyone claims this is a strict Nobilis theory. I'm pretty sure that 2E blue book predates Nobilis by at least a couple months.

Blackleaf · November 21, 2006, 10:24:39 PM

QuoteI don't see the big deal about what the OP had in it.

As a matter of fact, it wasn't even anything new.

No, it wasn't.

QuoteWho here remembers the 2E AD&D blue books? There was one full of advice for GM's, and one of the chapters suggested pretty much the same thing that the OP has in his post.

I don't own any 2E books, but I have the 1E ones.

The point of the OP wasn't that this is something new -- only that if *I* had written Nobilis, the rules would be more clearly presented. But as was pointed out, and as I've been learning about Ms. Borgstrom's writing, the lack of clarity is part of what her fans enjoy.

The Yann Waters · November 22, 2006, 07:36:17 AM

Quote from: StuartThe point of the OP wasn't that this is something new -- only that if *I* had written Nobilis, the rules would be more clearly presented.

As said, the actual rules of the game are presented in a more impartial tone. It's just that Monarda isn't one of them.

The Yann Waters · November 22, 2006, 07:53:38 AM

Quote from: T-WillardI don't see why everyone claims this is a strict Nobilis theory.

Of course it isn't: I had been running games by the same principle for more than a decade before hearing about Nob. But according to the Pundit's misreading of it, the PCs should be able to do absolutely anything even if it it contradicts logic or the rules or what the GM has just said. Even when the text in the book begins by saying that this is something to consider if you wish to avoid railroading when the players wouldn't enjoy it, the Pundit's bone of contention would appear to be that it's called a Law and that Laws must be obeyed literally.