Disclaimer: This is a long post that is more me working my thoughts out through the written word than anything else.

Context for this post: For over a year I have focused my game design efforts (such as they are) on the development of yet-another-fantasy-RPG. It's more an experiment in game design than anything else. My initial idea was to translate the video game experience to the table-top. It's a concept I have dropped because I think it is next to (if not) impossible to do so. They are two entirely different mediums that operate in two entirely different ways.
I continue to build on the "concept" because I am too far down the path to turn back. As well, the experiment has proved fun and interesting. I doubt the game on which I am working will ever be publicly released, despite the time and effort I have put into it, because it is - after all - an experiment.

There was some talk about how 4E D&D emulates the World of Warcraft experience. I wondered if this is true. If it was, then my experiment might prove successful.
I play WoW regularly, so am I very familiar with it. In order to advance my experiment further, I figured it was important to try my hand at 4E D&D. Yesterday I got the opportunity to do so with a group that is well versed in the 4E mechanics. It was my first exposure to 4E.

Getting started - I sat down at the game table with my pre-generatred level one Warlord eager to get started. I looked over my Feats, Talents, Daily...yadda, yadda, yadda. I was excited. Already I could see some similarities between D&D 4E and WoW. There were Strikers, Protectors, Controllers and so on...

The game itself: It was fairly straight-forward. A town ravaged by the "Goblin Wars" needs a group of heroes to assist it. That's us! Kobolds (that are operating out of an abandoned dwarf mine) are plaguing the local farmers. Someone needs to stop them. That's us!

The experience: We played for around eight hours with small breaks for meals, etc. In that time we participated in four encounters. The first was against a band of halfling bandits and the last three were against the kobolds and their allies (giant rats, rats, fire beetles, etc.) It was fun.

Why the translation fails: While I enjoyed the game, the players, the mechanics and all the rest, I was still disappointed. 4E D&D failed to emulate the video game experience.

Now, I will forward my theory on why it failed to translate the video-game experience to the table top.

First and foremost: It wasn't the fault of the game group. These are well-seasoned gamers who know their characters and the mechanics well. It isn't a fault of the mechanics either. I really like them.

It failed because task and combat resolution is slow, sometimes painfully so. A combat encounter in a table-top game is like a study of video game combat in extremely slow motion. Video games offer up something that no table-top game can. Instant gratification.

I could have ran through four simple encounters in WoW in 10 or 15 minutes. I can run through an instance (dungeon) in usually one or two hours.

Pen and paper game designers face a challenge in that "gamers" (in the venacular) are no longer board gamers or RPG'ers; they are computer gamers. And "gamers" are familiar with quick action, and quick resolution. Fortunately, the hobby still holds its appeal. We're even more fortunate because there are still some younger people eager to get involved in table top games. But that broad audience appeal is lacking.

No matter how I try to bend pen & paper RPG game mechanics, they still fall far short of offering that instant gratification factor. And hard core gamers tend to demand more game mechanics and rules, not less.  

Conclusion: I have moved away from my mission to develop a rules-set and game that will appeal to "gamers." Instead, I am focusing on developing a rules-set that shares some similar themes with video games.  

I will keep you posted.

I decided a long time ago that that trail was a dead end, Rich. The things CRPGs and especially MMORPGs give their players can't be done well in TTRPGs, so it isn't worth trying. OTOH, there are things TTRPGs can do elegantly that MMORPGs stumble over, badly. We need to concentrate on those things.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;286287I decided a long time ago that that trail was a dead end, Rich. The things CRPGs and especially MMORPGs give their players can't be done well in TTRPGs, so it isn't worth trying. OTOH, there are things TTRPGs can do elegantly that MMORPGs stumble over, badly. We need to concentrate on those things.

100% agreement.

Quote from: flyingmice;286287I decided a long time ago that that trail was a dead end, Rich. The things CRPGs and especially MMORPGs give their players can't be done well in TTRPGs, so it isn't worth trying. OTOH, there are things TTRPGs can do elegantly that MMORPGs stumble over, badly. We need to concentrate on those things.

Yeah, I came to that same basic conclusion.

As I stated in my original post, it was a failed experiment (but not a total failure, see below).

I think the entire excercise was my personal quest to return to the well-spring of table-top rpgs - a return to the basics. It just took me fourteen months to realize that. Still, I loved the journey, so that makes it a success in my book. I will share the game with you when it is finished. It even has a cover and a few illustrations.

Quote from: JohnnyWannabe;286308Yeah, I came to that same basic conclusion.

As I stated in my original post, it was a failed experiment (but not a total failure, see below).

I think the entire excercise was my personal quest to return to the well-spring of table-top rpgs - a return to the basics. It just took me fourteen months to realize that. Still, I loved the journey, so that makes it a success in my book. I will share the game with you when it is finished. It even has a cover and a few illustrations.

There is no such thing as a failed experiment. If you learn something, you win.

And thanks! I'd love to look at it! :O

-clash

Quote from: JohnnyWannabe;286308I think the entire excercise was my personal quest to return to the well-spring of table-top rpgs - a return to the basics. It just took me fourteen months to realize that. Still, I loved the journey, so that makes it a success in my book. I will share the game with you when it is finished. It even has a cover and a few illustrations.

Coool! What is it? What does it do? (Heck I've tried to keep everything simple. High Valor is being edited, layout soon! Yay!)

I tried 4E D&D, tried hard to like it--it felt different than 3E, but its not what I want in gaming either. I want mechanics that are simple enough that I can interject personality into the monsters--they aren't just a collection of stats and numbers, and after a certain point the stats and numbers become their own thing--divorced from flexibility and ease of use, divorced from what makes a monster/person/character interesting and fun.

I agree with Clash in that each medium has its strengths and weaknesses, and should focus on promoting its strengths and making its weaknesses irrelevant.

That said, quickness of resolving things with rules definitely varies a lot.

For example, in AD&D1e combat was 1-2 rolls per N/PC - roll to hit, if you hit then roll for damage.

But in GURPS it's 1-5 rolls per N/PC - roll to hit, if you hit they roll to dodge/parry, if they fail you roll for hit location, then roll for damage, if the damage is more than a certain amount they then roll to see if they're knocked out or killed.

It's clear that adding hit locations and the ability to roll to dodge/parry adds some lively detail to the game compared to just "hit points", but it also adds a lot of time. Because each dice roll is also a choice the player has to make - whether to target the attack on a hit location, whether to "all-out" attack" or "acrobatic" dodge and so on. The choices lead to modifiers on the dice rolls which people have to remember and usually say out loud. And each combat round represents one second. Think of resolving a boxing match with three minute - 180 second - rounds...

In playing AD&D1e I'm unsatisfied with the level of detail, it's not very evocative, you either attack or you don't, there aren't many interesting choices. In playing GURPS I find that by the time I find out if we won or not I no longer care.

Nowadays when designing a combat system I apply the "Bourne test". Look at this clip. In 25 seconds he takes out four guys. AD&D1e couldn't represent that fight at all, while GURPS would represent it very well but... very slowly. Following the rules-as-written you'd take probably 1-2 hours and over 200 dice rolls to do it.

I think any combat system ought to have as choices the sorts of things Bourne does in that clip with the results he gets - though not always as successful, of course - and be able to resolve that in less than 25 minutes. So you should be able to push innocents aside, stun a guy and use him to block the blows of another guy, aim for fragile but non-vital points, people should stagger a bit when struck, and so on.

Of course not every game needs such a combat system, that's only for games with plenty of combat. But it's a good example.

Quote from: flyingmice;286287I decided a long time ago that that trail was a dead end, Rich. The things CRPGs and especially MMORPGs give their players can't be done well in TTRPGs, so it isn't worth trying. OTOH, there are things TTRPGs can do elegantly that MMORPGs stumble over, badly. We need to concentrate on those things.

At the same time and while this is true, a game designer should always look at other mediums and be ready to steal ideas and observations that can be applied to the medium of his choice.

The rogue-like AlienRL for instance gave me some good ideas about how survival horror and paranoia can be added to a simple dungeoncrawl by such simple things as highly limited resources, unexpected behaviour of monsters and surprising shattering of players' assumptions about some very basics of the gameplay...

And to take something from the other direction, NetHack improved a lot in comparison to many of its simpler cousins, as the creators observed how folks in table-top D&D games make clever use of dungeon features and equipment to manage stuff that isn't written directly in the book, like zapping wands of digging downwards to escape trouble, or to hide their eyes behind towels to face monsters with petrifying gaze. The result has been an extensive physics engine in this CRPG, that allows a lot of unthought actions and therefore puzzling with the limited equipment, and this is probably the one point for that NetHack gets the most praise from the rogue-like crowd.

Quote from: Skyrock;286379At the same time and while this is true, a game designer should always look at other mediums and be ready to steal ideas and observations that can be applied to the medium of his choice.

Agreed! My point was addressed only to trying to design RPGs that mimic CRPGs. Stealing ideas is - as always - the soul of creativity.

-clash

Quote from: Silverlion;286323Coool! What is it? What does it do? (Heck I've tried to keep everything simple. High Valor is being edited, layout soon! Yay!)

While High Valor appears to be very original in content and approach (this is what I have gathered from your posts and what you have said about it), the game I am working on is vanilla. It is - like the golden oldies - combat-centric. There are definite "classes" - close combat, ranged combat, spell casting, sneaky - broken down into various backgrounds. Characters are human (there are no other races). The world is your typical fantasy world (medieval, pre-Renaissance) and fairly straight forward. There are monsters, dungeons (for lack of a better word), etc. The concept - stolen from many MMORPGS - is that characters must work together to accomplish their goals, particularly the big goals. The mechanic is a d6, dice pool, roll over mechanic. I hope this gives you an impression of what the game is about. As I stated before, this game will probably never see the light of day.

I am nearing the end of the first real alpha play test of the experiment and I have incorporated nearly all of the suggestions of the players into the document. In addition, I have clarified some of the rules and changed others for game balance. When the full alpha document is complete I will share it with anyone who wants to take a peek.

Quote from: JohnnyWannabe;287946I am nearing the end of the first real alpha play test of the experiment and I have incorporated nearly all of the suggestions of the players into the document. In addition, I have clarified some of the rules and changed others for game balance. When the full alpha document is complete I will share it with anyone who wants to take a peek.

/me Lifts hand

I'd love to see what you made of it, Rich!

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;287949/me Lifts hand

I'd love to see what you made of it, Rich!

-clash

The electronic pony is in the virtual stables, waiting to make an e-delivery. I should load the pack onto its back on Wednesday (if real work allows).

Quote from: JohnnyWannabe;287946When the full alpha document is complete I will share it with anyone who wants to take a peek.

::raises hand:: I'd love to see this.

Quote from: JohnnyWannabe;286451The world is your typical fantasy world (medieval, pre-Renaissance) and fairly straight forward. There are monsters, dungeons (for lack of a better word), etc. The concept - stolen from many MMORPGS - is that characters must work together to accomplish their goals, particularly the big goals. The mechanic is a d6, dice pool, roll over mechanic. I hope this gives you an impression of what the game is about. As I stated before, this game will probably never see the light of day.

Well if you do the dungeon crawl/hero team thing right, I'd be glad for it! Sometimes that's all me and my players want is to throw some dice, descend into dungeons, and whack the monsters.