QuoteThe support group (22 men) attacked the location with small arms and hand grenades in an eight-minute firefight, after which Simons estimated that 100 to 200 hostile soldiers had been killed.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070209043925/http://home.earthlink.net/~aircommando1/SONTAYRA1.htm

So what is it exactly that makes these guys:


walk over these guys?:


I have a lot of board/miniatures and RPG rules but I can't quite pin down exactly what makes the assymetry so one sided or how to accurately model it. 

I'm currently trying in GURPS. To be a good model/simulation I think when played out it should have a very good chance of replicating the historical result.

I'm making a list of mechanics I need, can you guys help or offer suggestions of stuff I miss that you think would be relevant?:

1. Surprise - 1D6 seconds for each enemy soldier/leader to react before they can fire back/organise. Dudes are like: "No way, this isn't really happening this far into North Vietnam." So some guys may be acting alone after 1 second but probably aren't organised or lead (Which leads to 2). So Americans have 6 seconds of fire and movement to further put the enemy "off-balance". Edit: sorry I shouldn't use terms like off balance without defining it in mechanical terms - I mean each guy is in a varying state of surprise so a defence or counter attack is more difficult to achieve because so many guys mechanically can do nothing.

2. Leadership skills - The Green Berets would be famous for a hardcore of NCOs and their men would never hesitate and keep maneouvering against enemy fire to win the firefight, without fear. The Vietnamese might be 2nd line guys and more of a mixed bag, although in a hundred you may have one talented leader. Leaders can make rolls and probably fail and that means the NVA force becomes piece meal and a lot of guys cower and stay static, waiting for leadership and if you don't move in a firefight, you're dead.

3. NVA Fright Checks - 20 green faced/red goggled heavily armed white men suddenly appearing in your camp could also invoke fright check table rolls. Especially since the Viets are superstitious.  At first I would give no +5 Heat of Battle modifier, but coming face to face with one of the Green Berets later in the battle would get it.

4. Stats/Advantages/perks/skills - The Green Berets are the best America has and a true meritocracy, so high stats making them move faster and have a better inherent dodge.

Acute hearing, acute vision, combat reflexes, danger sense, fearlessness would be almost universal. Some NVA could have some of these advantages too randomly.

Americans also get Battle Drills probably with slightly higher bonuses than recommended due to intense training on a model of the camp. Americans get Cool Under Fire, lightning fingers, fast draw on magazines, quick reload.

Obvs the Green Berets have put a lot of ammo through their guns and know how to shoot accurately so will have high shooting skill levels (15+)

5. Tactics - This is where I'm kinda completely lost. How do you game out a successful tactics roll? Should you oppose it with the enemy leader/s? Since I'm not a Son Tay Raider I don't really know how the combat assault worked in detail (ordered a book on it though I should have soon, but not sure if it will go into this much detail). Was it fire and movement by squads or pairs or what? Was it just clearing in a skirmish line from one edge of the camp to the other? What would a failure play out as? A loss of communication? One element doesn't know it's their turn to move? This is the one that puts the effects of the unit as a whole into the picture, rather than individual skill. 

6. Game Clock? Lulls in battle An eight minute firefight is approximately 480 rounds of combat in GURPS..hmm. How could I make this more practical/model small breaks in combat? Sometimes I want to make GURPS into a 5 second system like Delta Force..somehow..

This is an interesting question about how well the U.S. forces did against the VC here. This case is tricky to understand since it was a covert mission in an isolated area, and so there isn't a lot of information to understand what was going on.

I don't know much about Vietnam War missions, but I know more about the Korean War battles -- though probably the battle I know the most about is the battle in Mogadishu thanks to Mark Bowden's book _Black Hawk Down_. I think the fascinating thing in that book is his interviews with people from many different sides.

About Fright Checks -- does that line up with how the NVA operated in other battles? My impression is that the NVA kept fighting in the face of heavy fire in other battles. In any war, it's important to look at and respect how well the enemy fights. A lot of WWII games give a lot of detail into how the Germans, Russians, and Japanese fought - all of them having different strengths and weaknesses. I haven't played any Vietnam or Korean War games, but I know some about the Korean War from a mix of family stories and independent reading.

For the Son Tay Raid, some Vietnamese sources are here - you can translate them via automation like Google Translate. They don't say much about the tactics, but more broadly, it is one of the more interesting things about the modern era is about being able to read about battles from both sides.

https://danviet.vn/vu-tap-kich-son-tay-nam-1970-my-tu-tin-100-nhung-thu-ve-con-so-0-20220917162608799.htm

https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%E1%BB%A5_t%E1%BA%ADp_k%C3%ADch_S%C6%A1n_T%C3%A2y

Quote from: jhkim on Today at 03:26:08 AMThis case is tricky to understand since it was a covert mission in an isolated area, and so there isn't a lot of information to understand what was going on.

Ah, what? yeah there is. There are about a dozen easily available books on it. I've ordered some. Even this website has detailed maps and info: https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/son-tay-raid-50-years-november-21-1970-special-operations-vietnam-war/

There are about 80 witnesses that only 1 US soldier was wounded and hundreds of Vietnamese were killed in close quarters battle.

This much is not disputed.

QuoteI don't know much about Vietnam War missions,

So why are you commenting?

QuoteAbout Fright Checks -- does that line up with how the NVA operated in other battles? My impression is that the NVA kept fighting in the face of heavy fire in other battles.

Why? What sources do you have? I've listed in detail reasons why they might have not been good on the defensive in this fight. If you want to dispute each reason in detail do it. I've given reasons why the NVA might be scared. Did you know US Navy SEALs used to dress up as monsters to surprise Charlie? I've heard multiple SEALs tell this story.

QuoteIn any war, it's important to look at and respect how well the enemy fights.

That's woke. I look at reality of history. Sometimes people fight well, sometimes they don't, I only want to know the truth.

 

QuoteA lot of WWII games give a lot of detail into how the Germans, Russians, and Japanese fought - all of them having different strengths and weaknesses. I haven't played any Vietnam or Korean War games, but I know some about the Korean War from a mix of family stories and independent reading.

I knew an elderly Vietnamese who was an ARVN vet. He told me he didn't fear the NVA and Charlie half as much as he feared the ROKs - The ROKs were supposed to be on his side by the way.

QuoteFor the Son Tay Raid, some Vietnamese sources are here - you can translate them via automation like Google Translate. They don't say much about the tactics, but more broadly, it is one of the more interesting things about the modern era is about being able to read about battles from both sides.

https://danviet.vn/vu-tap-kich-son-tay-nam-1970-my-tu-tin-100-nhung-thu-ve-con-so-0-20220917162608799.htm

https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%E1%BB%A5_t%E1%BA%ADp_k%C3%ADch_S%C6%A1n_T%C3%A2y

Sounds like a waste of time unless they're talking about the Son Tay raid.