Melinglor Answer thread: What´s Thematic?

[Settembrini]

So to wrap up your questions, please post them here.

I´ll start answering with what I call thematic and Thematic.

thematic: concerning/exploring the human condition, especially individual motivations and problems; mostly of interpersonal kind

Thematic: connotation that signals the dedicated exploration of aforementioned stuff via rules and game structure. Those games are centered around this, even overruling immersion, tactics, constructed challenges etc.

[Blackleaf]

Wouldn't "thematic" games include more than what you're saying here?

the·mat·ic
* of, relating to, or constituting a theme

theme
* a subject or topic of discourse or of artistic representation
* a specific and distinctive quality, characteristic, or concern

Wouldn't a game like Vampire be a thematic game -- particularly if the focus of the game was on humanity, salvation, betrayal etc.

[Settembrini]

Yeah, you have thematic stuff in basically every game. Like you can have "story" "role" or "adventure" in almost every game.

But games called: "Thematic Games", are concentrating on exploring thematic elements through dedicated rules and  structure.

It´s their main concern, so that´s why I think  it´s the best name for them.

Ron Edwards said in our interview, that he´d been gaming and wanting thematic  from the very beginning of his RPG career. And now he´s furthering the production and discussion of games dedicated to deliver that aspect.

I would argue that this dedication is sacrificing alot of stuff, but that´s a value discussion we might keep out of this.

[David R]

Examples of thematic games ?

Regards,
David R

[David R]

But games called: "Thematic Games", are concentrating on exploring thematic elements through dedicated rules and  structure.

It´s their main concern, so that´s why I think  it´s the best name for them.

Another question. Say I created a game focusing on exploring thematic elements through dedicated rules and structure using d20. Would I have created a Thematic game?

Regards,
David R

[Christmas Ape]

Examples of thematic games ?

Regards,
David R

My suspicion is that the perennial favorite, DitV, as the die mechanic of that game is based on "How far will you go to back up your position", rather than "How good are you at doing things".

But this is Sett's thread, so I'll let him.

[Settembrini]

This thread is amongst other thing about the question why I think  Pantheon is  a Thematic  Game.

So I´ll cite that as an example.

The New Style gamesystem Narrative  Cagematch is Thematic Gaming, because it concentrates on the cooperative generation of text to explore genre conventions and it faciliates conflict between the participants about the exact development of the text. The points used in scoring in some of the Pantheon book scenarios highlight that. In Pantheon itself, you are a god and wrestle the will of the other players to make your vision of godhood paramount.

[TonyLB]

The New Style gamesystem Narrative  Cagematch is Thematic Gaming, because it concentrates on the cooperative generation of text to explore genre conventions and it faciliates conflict between the participants about the exact development of the text. The points used in scoring in some of the Pantheon book scenarios highlight that. In Pantheon itself, you are a god and wrestle the will of the other players to make your vision of godhood paramount.

Can you explain what the theme being explored there is?  If it's just "narration is always a theme" then that's a bit wilfully post-modernist, isn't it?

My intuition would have been that concentrating on narrative structure rather than fictional reality (i.e. you have power over What Happens Next, not power to Climb The Wall) would be a tool ... quite possibly a tool that lends itself well to Thematic Games, but not itself a thematic goal.  But that's just my intuition.  I'm more interested in hearing your take on the term.

Oh, and thanks for this thread!

[Settembrini]

My intuition would have been that concentrating on narrative structure rather than fictional reality (i.e. you have power over What Happens Next, not power to Climb The Wall) would be a tool ... quite possibly a tool that lends itself well to Thematic Games, but not itself a thematic goal. But that's just my intuition. I'm more interested in hearing your take on the term.

Totally with you, it´s tools.

But how are they used in Narrative Cagematch Games?

FREX:

To emulate the fight over an inheritance. Obviously exploration of the human condition with special look at individual motivations and interactions with relationships.

To emulate a horror movie´s archetyical script elements in regard to the characters involved. Also heavy on individual  relationships.

To play god and explore the players individual motivations.

[TonyLB]

So there's not a specific theme, but the game system motivates the address of some human theme?  Have I got that right?

[Settembrini]

So there's not a specific theme, but the game system motivates the address of some human theme?  Have I got that right?

Yepp. That´s why I let myself make the rather exaggerated statement that you´d never need another system for theme centered play.

[TonyLB]

I'm interested in how NCM makes the bridge from "This is a game where we manipulate the narrative directly" to "This game must be about human concerns."  How does it discourage people from (say) conflicting over which political system is ascendant, or other pieces of narration that are distant from the human condition?

[Settembrini]

How does it discourage people from (say) conflicting over which political system is ascendant, or other pieces of narration that are distant from the human condition?

Nothing, I´d say. But it doesn´t provide you anything to model those problems.
If somebody hacks up such a scenario like this, I´m game.

But (sadly) those mechanics/tools are mostly used for the character exploration stuff. (Don´t tell Luke, but look at BE...)

So it´s safe to say that "Pantheon and five other games" as written are Thematic Games/Scenarios.

NCM can be used for all kinds of stuff which needs a resolution for "my bullshit" vs. "his bullshit".

[Mrglwrf]

These sorts of discussions make me wonder: what does the "human condition" mean? I don't think I've ever seen the phrase defined. The only thing I've been able to deduce from context is that is must be artistically significant.

[Melinglor]

Hi, thanks for taking the time to wrap this up!

So OK, I think you've got a pretty good definition going there, individual people may have personal quibbles over this or that aspect of "theme," but that seems a pretty good encapsulation of what people are looking for in Thematic Gaming.

I still don't understand why Pantheon/Narrative Cagematch is particularly thematic.

I'm kinda scratching my head here. . .I mean, I can see how you could play the scenarios with a thematic focus. . .but they don't seem particularly geared/not geared toward it. (You can drive for thematic play in any system or ruleset in fact; the contention of the makers of Thematic games is that it's better if you've got a system tooled intensively toward that purpose.)

Reviewing your cited points for calling NCM thematic, it seems your main reason is that the scenarios deal with personal relationships. Is that an accurate summation? If so, while your definition does include the exploration of personal relationships, I'd say that's so broad, the way you're applying it, so as to be meaningless. Anything deeper than a straight hanck'n'slash dungeon crawl is going to deal with interpersonal relationships. I agree that they are an important ingredient in Thematic gaming but just the presence of them in a scenario or game does not Thematic make.

Now, admittedly I'm operating on scant info regarding what NCM actually is or does. But from what i've been told, some of the scenarios seem fairly ripe for Thematic exploration, and others not. I mean, squabbling over an inheritance, if that's all the scenario's about, would almost have to be about interpersonal relationships and hard questions about human behavior to be interesting. Playing out a B-movie haunted house scenario, much less so. Emulating genre is not Theme as you've defined it here. You could play the thing pretty serious, exploring how the characters help each other or not, and the ramifications of those choices. Or you could just sit back with hour cheetos and have a laugh, delighting in the schlock-cheese of the horror conventions ("Hey guys, let's split up!" "Wanna have a quickie in the basement while the power's out?") that you're rewarded for introducing.

You've made a distinction between theme and Theme, and that's good. Very important to understand in this discussion, I think. But now it seems like you're falling into the trap of ignoring this distinction yourself, and lumping anything (i.e. Pantheon) that has a whiff of thematic possibilities into the category of Thematic gaming.

The Thematic games I'm familiar with, in contrast to Pantheon, are all geared mechanically and situationally toward addressing their particular theme, as per your second definition.

Thoughts?

Peace,
-Joel