Quote from: Pierce InverarityGleichman, re. Paladin: that's a special case, namely of a PC who comes with built-in beliefs (or divergence from those, doesn't matter) from the get-go. So, at start of game Paladins and Clerics are much less clean slates than the other classes.

True enough, but what are kickers if less than a clean slate?

Btw, the player who related the story was seriously insulted when I made the suggestion you just did, i.e. that they didn't understand paladins and shouldn't run paladins until they did...

Quote from: StuartRPG + Paladin + Scruples = Dogs in the Vineyard

I don't see how trying to run Dogs in the Vineyard with D&D is playing to the games strengths.  If that's what you want to be doing -- run DitV!

A good Paladin would slay DitV as the tool of satan it is.

Quote from: AosUnless I misunderstand the term, illusionism only sucks when you know its illusionism.

The term is best understood, in my opinion, as the use of arbitrary GMing power to covertly nullify or undercut the significance of player decisions or actions. Of course if the player knows about it, it's no longer covert. "Railroading" is a term often used to refer to the overt version. But in between, there are areas of suspicion and doubt, and it may well be that it's not so much the covert quality that bugs people so much as focusing on the dilemma and disallowing the divergent thinking that's comes naturally with a coherent setting.

The Superman example's a good one. Most people do understand that the Joker's an SOB who'd do exactly that sort of thing to Supes--it doesn't violate the setting. But once it's set up, the GM should not be fixated on forcing a "hard choice" when there's a perfectly doable tactical/simulationist solution available. It's like in a dungeon I ran recently, I had what I thought was a pretty nifty combat encounter involving some goblins and a "pet" otyugh. So what did the adventurers do? They talked to the goblins, presenting themselves as security experts, and convinced them to allow an "audit" of the lair. This was all achieved through a high Charisma character making good reaction checks. So I let the game go that way. I suppose if I'd later rolled an encounter with one of the goblins while the PCs were ransacking a side room, I could have interpreted that as the goblins getting wise, but that also didn't happen. So they got out scott free with the good loot and just a few minor scrapes. And I think they enjoyed themselves.

Quote from: gleichmanTrue enough, but what are kickers if less than a clean slate?

Sure, but I'm not making a case for "kickers," I'm simply saying that PCs from several D&D classes can be and have been developed during play.

Quote from: Pierce InveraritySure, but I'm not making a case for "kickers," I'm simply saying that PCs from several D&D classes can be and have been developed during play.

Oh I have no doubt about that. But there's a cost for a clean slate class and a setting that would allow it.

Interestingly enough, all the players I've encountered over the years (many dozens), I've never seen a DIP player except online. That may be because of the games I play (HERO seems disliked by them as it almost requires DAS) or because I steer them away by other means.

I'm rather glad I haven't. It doesn't sound like they'd work in my group.

Quote from: gleichmanOh I have no doubt about that. But there's a cost for a clean slate class and a setting that would allow it.

Interestingly enough, all the players I've encountered over the years (many dozens), I've never seen a DIP player except online. That may be because of the games I play (HERO seems disliked by them as it almost requires DAS) or because I steer them away by other means.

I'm rather glad I haven't. It doesn't sound like they'd work in my group.

I believe in Develop in Play, pretty much exclusively. (But then, here I am online...). I don't mean to discount Brian's experience, but it seems like any player could be either/or depending on the camapign. So for one campaign you might have a backstory and a fully developed character.. and for another all you have is the filled out character sheet.

You know, at one point just prior to being hired by WoTC, Mearls was considering moving to Uruguay to live here and write online, to take advantage of the economic benefits of doing so... now more than ever I wish this had happened, for many reasons.

RPGPundit

Myself and the thirty-odd people I regularly game with are all about DIP.

"Character history is what you have at tenth level."

Surely, we always see to that the character is embedded in the setting. But that is only concerned with "Why is he/she here/taking part in that mission."

That can be pretty scant oftentimes. Th problem with most backstory stuff is that it´s not beneficial to the game. Now, I´m a firm believer in the-game-before-the-game and the-game-after-the-game. But backstory oftentimes does not mesh well, as it creates longings which I and other DMs don´t really want to be concerned with.

I'm just curious...how many folks actually went and read the Mearls post and all of the comments?

It´s actually worse than I thought!

Same here. Dude likes Supertramp.

I mean, Supertramp.

:killingme:

Oh, dear. From one of the linked threads, on "Kicker"

Ron Edwards: "It's a copyrighted term, it's part of the Sorcerer rules, and I am perfectly happy for anyone to include it in their game design if they give me credit."

Yes, this is pure snark, but if RE can claim copyright on "Kicker", Wizards should have a field day with "Class", "Level", "Hit Points", etc.

Quote from: Elliot WilenYes, this is pure snark, but if RE can claim copyright on "Kicker", Wizards should have a field day with "Class", "Level", "Hit Points", etc.

Given that apparently "Hit Points" was lifted from another game, that could be problematic.  Class and Level? Err, those they could have a problem with defending due to genericness, especially at this point given a lapse in enforcement and them entering common usage.  But if Microsoft can pull of "Windows" (yeah, that probably represents the fringes of defendability), "Word" and "Excel"? All Ron really needs is big bags of money and a desire to part with them. :hehe:

P.S. But if you really did use it why wouldn't you acknowledge it, other than just being a prick?

Somebody should point him, very gently, to Germany's biggest soccer website.

http://www.kicker.de/

You know, I'm much more troubled by Mearls' reference to using a set of "Traveller-like" rules (for generating characters? in play?) and his prior statements to the effect that he doesn't "get" Traveller.  Does he only now "get" Traveller within the context of Sorcerer?

!i!