I was digging through some older threads and ran across this.

Quote from: Keran;26437Not to mention that the coming of age story doesn't often hold my attention these days.  (Been there, done that already in real life, would rather do something else now.) I want to explore how powerful characters dispose of their power, not how weak characters become powerful; but a lot of systems have 'start weak and rise to power' as their expected path.

Which got me thinking of where i've seen this happen in literature or tv/movies.

The Slayers has it happen with different "gods" throughout the series. They awaken from their slumber at a fraction of the power they should have, and as such can be defeated, though not with ease.

Cthulhu might be included along a similar line, as when he first awakens he can be killed with a ship's bowsprit.

Tolkien's villains, Saruman and Sauron, both lose their powers through certain terms of their defeat (destruction of magic staff, loss of the One Ring), in such a way that does not kill them, but seriously reduces their potency, if not their malignancy.

As a player of console RPGs when i was younger, i enjoyed the game Secret of Mana. Since then i've learned that the term is derived from native Pacific islander lore and mythology.

Mana has several definitions (if wikipedia can be believed). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mana

"the stuff of which magic is formed"
"the substance of which souls are made"
"refers to a person or organization of people of great personal prestige and character"
"a spiritual quality considered to have supernatural origin"
"a sacred impersonal force existing in the universe"
"peoples, governments, places and inanimate objects can possess mana"
"There are two ways to obtain mana: through birth and through warfare"
"a form of a spiritual energy and also healing power which can exist in places, objects and persons"
"In people, mana is often possessed or gained through pono (balance) actions, reflecting the balance that exists in the world and humanity's responsibility toward maintaining that balance"
"Similar to the idea of efficacy, or luck, the Melanesians thought all success traced back to mana"
"Magic is a typical way to acquire or manipulate this luck"

Somewhere else i remember reading that Mana could be lost through defeat.

So, how would it be to have a game where the acquisition (or loss) of Mana were a core mechanic, affecting one's efficiency at things and even granting (or losing) powers.

I've always wondered at how in stories, wizards can cast just a few times, not get hit by anything physically, and yet they still get drained of energy and eventually become helpless, but i've yet to encounter any RPG that reflects this common occurrence in stories. I've tried to do this with my own RPG, but it still doesn't have characters actually losing their abilities.

Would we want a game like this? Could we make a game like this? How would it be made?

Quote from: Amalgam;572826So, how would it be to have a game where the acquisition (or loss) of Mana were a core mechanic, affecting one's efficiency at things and even granting (or losing) powers.

The Primal Order, by pre-D&D Wizards of the Coast.

QuoteI've always wondered at how in stories, wizards can cast just a few times, not get hit by anything physically, and yet they still get drained of energy and eventually become helpless, but i've yet to encounter any RPG that reflects this common occurrence in stories. I've tried to do this with my own RPG, but it still doesn't have characters actually losing their abilities.

Would we want a game like this? Could we make a game like this? How would it be made?

Pretty much any RPG that uses some kind of magic points mechanic works exactly like this.  Runequest, many BRP-based games, and GURPS Magic work like this, just off the top of my head.

Hmmm... haven't heard of Primal Order.

Haven't played Runequest or Gurps.

I'm familiar with Magic Points (just about every CRPG uses them), but i was meaning a more drastic element than "i ran out of gas" style of spell casting. Rest, refill, go back to spell casting.

What i'm suggesting is that rather than losing Mana by spell casting, you lose Mana by losing combat or some other meaningful failure, and spell casters (or just anyone for that matter) would have to go on a journey or perform some special task to regain that power. (seeking revenge against the one who defeated you, slaying an infamous foe or creature, conquering a land, etc...)

Could you expand on how those games you mentioned work?

EDIT: in D&D terms, this might be along the lines of stealing a magical item that holds a key feature for the spell caster in question, or perhaps outright pilfering a Wizard's Spellbook. But more drastically would be something along the lines of a Silence curse with permanency on it. The Wizard would be unable to remove the curse himself, and would have to seek help to remove it.

Another D&D example that comes to mind is the Mindsunder crystal in DDO's Korthos Island storyline. Destroying it releases the ice dragon from the mind flayer's hold, who in turn kills the mind flayer.

But again, i'm hoping to get away from mere item theft/destruction, and have an effect that applies directly to the character itself.

The idea reminded me of:
*Dragon Warriors staffs - a sorcerer creates a magic staff by permanently transferring their own Magic Points into it; the staff gets 1 1/2 for each MP lost, but of course they're pretty boned if they then lose the staff (sort of One Ring-ish).
*The old Demonspawn solo adventure books had a magic system where magic points didn't naturally replenish (the PC of the series, Fire*Wolf, was a barbarian who only relies secondarily upon magic). To get them initially he had to do some dangerous crypt adventure, and he could recharge them later mainly by sacrificing life points.
 
A few of the science-fantasy games also have some of cybernetics rule where too much cyberware destroys a character's magic stat: Rifts has loss of magic effectiveness and eventually forced class change to Borg, Synnibarr characters with 75%+ biomass replaced lose all magical ability, Shadowrun characters can lose points off their Magic stat (meaning higher-force spells then do lethal damage to them rather than mental damage when cast, IIRC.); in 1E Shadowrun one of the sample archetypes is the 'burned-out mage' with a little magic left and lots of cyberware.
EDIT: Synnibarr also has an amazingly broken 'Power Transfer' spell, which lets you steal a target's class/level, attribute scores and powers/mutations, leaving the victim mostly useless while you become awesome.

QuoteSo, how would it be to have a game where the acquisition (or loss) of Mana were a core mechanic, affecting one's efficiency at things and even granting (or losing) powers.

The game I'm making is Mana based. The name I've given it now is Mana Sphere.