So I had this idea, based on this short story:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080725045740/http://www.solarisbooks.com/books/newbookscifi/last-contact.asp

briefly, the protagonists are an astrophysicist and her mother.  The story's plot is that inexorably deep field galaxies and megaclusters have vanished, and this "deletion" has grown.  It is eventually understood that the Big Rip is occurring, and shortly (within months) the effect will become local to our galaxy, then our solar system, and everything will be utterly annihilated at the quantum level.

I've wondered about the game-ability of a setting.  What if the effect were discovered, what if measurements showed that the universe would rip itself apart not in months but years...say...30.  Thirty years until everything - completely everything, not our planet, nor our solar system, nor galaxy nor supercluster but reality itself simply ceases.

It's close enough that it's grim.  It's a universal phenomena, players in a game with a backdrop such as that could no more say "Well we'll find a way to stop it!" than 75 point agent characters in a set-in-real-life mercenary game using the Hero System could stop the sun from rising.  There's no "quantum gun" or "reverso-bomb" that's going to fix things, there's no colony ship that can be built to run away on; there won't be anywhere to run away to.  It's not like some grand plan can be instituted to leave our legacy to some future race: eternity itself will cease to be until quantum instability reorders matter in such a way that singularity reoccurs and starts the whole works over again, a process which will take infinite time.

(Note that this scenario also presumes an entirely athiest universe, or at least one wherein the almighty was simply watching the mechanism run its course.)

So the question then becomes, what would players do, or be tasked with doing?

Thirty years is "enough" time that many in the know would at least want the last generation to not die horribly, so the secret would have to be kept, a conspiracy above the most paranoid conspiracies ever thought up.  What's to stop a president, 10 years out, from saying "YOU KNOW WHAT, I'M ONLY 55 I HAD MAYBE 30 OR 40 GOOD YEARS IN FRONT OF ME BUT I GUESS I DON'T I'VE ALWAYS HATED THE RUSSIANS FIRE THE FUCKING MISSILES" if they know?

So for whatever unfortunate turn of luck, the characters find out the information,  backed up by irrefutable facts, and are handed a task: keep this quiet...remove people who won't stay quiet about it...let the Earth and its people die in peace, not in agony.  You've got virtually unlimited resources, and, for the time you have, you can live like a king.

Would you play in a game like that as GM or player?  Would that hold any appeal?  Would you alter it any?  If so, how?

It could be an interesting set up. I'd play it like a conspiracy type game, whether the players discover the conspiracy or enforce it I think it's game-able.

It could also be a WW3-type game, everyone is getting in their last hits and generally going insane.

Quote from: Piestrio;699935It could be an interesting set up. I'd play it like a conspiracy type game, whether the players discover the conspiracy or enforce it I think it's game-able.

It could also be a WW3-type game, everyone is getting in their last hits and generally going insane.

The short story implies that the data coming in from other star systems - as they perished - might hold some key to staving it off.  Maybe that'd be an angle to play the game from.

Sounds somewhat like the situation in Childhood's End by Arthur C Clarke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood%27s_End

Quote from: dragoner;699943Sounds somewhat like the situation in Childhood's End by Arthur C Clarke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood%27s_End

Mm, sort of...I mean I could see the mania of "holy crap this is the end of earth as we know it" setting in once the children began to develop as they had but on the other hand, the Big Rip hanging over everything that's...that's an existential crisis above and beyond.  Of course that might be simply too large for most people to easily grasp, at that.

Well if I have 30 years its time to start some lunatic experiments developing Time Travel...then we'd have 15 billion years to sort out the problem.
I'd be totally the Bad Guy who wants to feed the Sun into the proto-TARDIS engines next week if there's a 2% chance it works.

(I know, I know. No time travel either. )

You'd be playing an existential tragedy, where players have to derive meaning for themselves in the point of playing their PC. Literally nothing they will do will matter -- outside the naïve supposition that maintaining world ignorance is a kindness in the face of unalterable annihilation. Lives are always being destroyed and ruined and ground into dust; what does maintaining the crushing status quo really provide for them?

This would be a game that dances on the margin of RPG consciousness, where sessions become more genre vignettes than adventure. But unlike the exploration of the milkmaid who wanted to at least marry a decent man, this is more along the lines of every PC is a Camus character, trying to find meaning amid the horrors of cholera. Fun, but a very different fun.

At least the thirty year timeframe gives a space to explore meaning. This would suck as a one-shot as there's no room to explore the pathos of imminent demise and the futility of immortality by proxy (children, deeds, art, etc.). Also you'd have to be extremely clear to players about the premise and absolute irrevocability of the final result. The mortality of the piece has to be starkly accepted to make anything out of this.

Quote from: Opaopajr;700004You'd be playing an existential tragedy, where players have to derive meaning for themselves in the point of playing their PC. Literally nothing they will do will matter -- outside the naïve supposition that maintaining world ignorance is a kindness in the face of unalterable annihilation. Lives are always being destroyed and ruined and ground into dust; what does maintaining the crushing status quo really provide for them?

This would be a game that dances on the margin of RPG consciousness, where sessions become more genre vignettes than adventure. But unlike the exploration of the milkmaid who wanted to at least marry a decent man, this is more along the lines of every PC is a Camus character, trying to find meaning amid the horrors of cholera. Fun, but a very different fun.

At least the thirty year timeframe gives a space to explore meaning. This would suck as a one-shot as there's no room to explore the pathos of imminent demise and the futility of immortality by proxy (children, deeds, art, etc.). Also you'd have to be extremely clear to players about the premise and absolute irrevocability of the final result. The mortality of the piece has to be starkly accepted to make anything out of this.

Thank you; I really enjoyed reading your response.

Do you think it's a workable premise for an RPG?

First of all, I'll get on my high horse - or perhaps I won't, I've spilled enough bile lately.

It works, but also not for everyone. I remember having a similar discussion/argument ages ago here, when the issue of post apocalyptic gaming cropped up, and I have mentioned "On The Beach" (the thread then mostly went off the rails when there was hairsplitting whether or not "On The Beach" is PA or not, and I think someone even argued that Mad Max isn't PA. Welcome to the Internet) - a tragic setting, where the outcome (death of everything) is predetermined. Then I tried to write about it, but lost myself in my own self - pleasuring and literature analysis rather than talk RPGs. So now, let's talk practice.


First of all - I'd shorten the timespan of the event, from 30 years to say, 3, or even a year. 30 years is a huge timespan in an RPG (even assuming 1 year = 1 game session), I'm not sure how the material'd hold for such a lengthy campaign. You also avoid the "we still got 20 years to go, let's slack off a bit"removed - the shorter the time before Event, the quicker stakes generally rise. While on that subject - as Opa noted, this is a bit of an "experimental" play, most of enjoyment is depending on a heavy immersion, and the topic you're immersing into isn't a very bright one, so there's also the issue of being simply tired of the gloom of the situation. Which is why while I agree it's definitely not for a one shot (because the connection between a player and his/her character simply'll not be entirely developed), I think it's an idea best served for a relatively short campaign (10 - 20 sessions), so that players aren't simply tired and don't go into "woe is me" territory.

I like the premise of secret agents keeping the conspiracy up, with players being part of conspiracy, rather than opponents of it - a nice change of pace. I'd be ready for Player versus Player conflict though, as I suspect inevitably one of the players will rat the conspiracy out to the public, and I think it'll be only fair that players' unit takes care of their own mess. Plus, it gives a very nice RPG hook to something that'd otherwise be better served as subject for a novel or film - after all, not that many people'd like to play 20 sessions of Milkman Pondering The End Of The World. I'd suggest making at least one high - ranking NPC, who'd eventually try to track the "weakest link" in the group, and recruit him over to his cause - the one that'd reveal the secret to the world. In fact, I'd have the first session start with PCs being sent over to kill a whistleblower before he gets to Russia - you know, hammer the Snowden iron while it's hot . Same for the Nuclear War angle - I'd make an adventure somewhere in the middle of things, that one of Nuclear Powers' president, previously who knew nothing of it, has just learned and decides to nuke everyone, and barricaded himself with an elite team of bodyguards, the whole Agency descending on the presidential palace in a brutal slaughter - whether or not they succeed, the game turns into post - nuclear apocalyptic play.

There's also the question about inevitableness of the event - is it really inevitable? Or does some McGuffin come to pass, that saves the situation? Or perhaps the scientist simply got it wrong? It's a tough question, but I think it's best to keep the situation indeed hopeless - otherwise it may be a bit of a dick move, considering what terrible things the PCs probably did to keep the conspiracy, for all their deeds to suddenly turn worthless.

As I wrote earlier, there are also people who just dislike being put in a hopeless situation in gaming - so make sure your group is okay with that. Though I'd actually suggest you make this delicately - personally, I'd not tell the group out of character that the situation is definitely hopeless, but that's just because I'm a horrible bastard (and I think an OOC delusion of hope'd be an important element of an IC delusion of hope). Then again - you probably know your friends well enough to know how they'll react to such a premise, it's just one of those topics I'd not play with a "random recruitment" gaming group, so to speak.

As for media and inspiration, outside of what was mentioned already -  I suggest Melancholia by Lars von Trier, mentioned before On the Beach, Threads/When the Wind Blows (not as much for the nuclear pondering themselves, but for psychological profiles of people who suspect they're witnessing the end of the world). On the Beach perhaps most importantly, because I think you'd draw an easy parallel between the submarine's crew and the PCs/NPCs working for the Agency. For the Agency itself, aside from le Carrey stuff (I know it's about spies, but I think it can serve a well inspiration here as well), oddly enough, I'd suggest Laundry Files, especially the latter parts, as they deal more and more with the incoming apocalypse.

Ever watch that 1950's Gregory Peck movie The Beach? I would be that on steroids. I would redefine the definition of  nihilism and any associated behavior vaguely connected to such condition. I am guessing you wouldn't like it.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;700036Thank you; I really enjoyed reading your response.

Do you think it's a workable premise for an RPG?

Twilight 2000 worked didn't it?

Quote from: thedungeondelver;700036Thank you; I really enjoyed reading your response.

Do you think it's a workable premise for an RPG?

Anytime!

As for workable premise, you're asking someone who'd gladly exchange the next 10 dungeon crawls or fantasy superheroes games for the milkmaid looking for a decent man game. I say yes, but know that I am an outlier.

However, if you get the pitch tight enough, let the players marinate on it for a while, and then shoot a premise where players will run in an rpg world like the movies Magnolia, Lost in Translation, or Crash, you might get something quite beautiful. Combat would take a tremendous backseat, but synchronicity and oblique moments of transcendence will naturally occur with a large enough cast of PCs and NPCs. Remember, for this game meaning will be player derived, but given humanity's capacity to notice patterns and invest meaning I feel certain players will stumble into something personally profound.

Practice with new players more social rpgs, like Birthright, or Vampire, or Legend of the Five Rings, to get used to the idea of talking being the whole game. Also look up Benoist, Zak S, etc. interesting sketches of turning dungeon making tools into social framework design. And you'll need an improvisational capacity to generate lots of NPCs on the fly.

You're asking for a tall order. But if you get the players in the right frame of mind, and can paint the clockwork world as fast as they can stumble around trying to find their own motivation, you might get something really special. Just be aware that it will be an implicit experience, slow to crescendo, mild in climax, and leaving a lingering introspection.

I recommend reading Kawabata, author of excellent books like Snow Country, as he is a master of the implicit.

Holy shit, I just figured out what this is. It's Wraith: the Oblivion, the best game you'll never get to play, as everyone else is too depressed. Except it's like the living atheist world version.

Understand, I'm a kill-the-dragon-take-the-gold guy.  I'd rather re-read Fafhrd & Grey Mouser stories or Three Hearts and Three Lions or The Lord of the Rings for the nth time rather than Perdido Station once (maybe that speaks badly of me), but as a change of pace a series of adventures (little "A") set against the backdrop of a coming Big Rip sounds pretty interesting to explore.

And to put a silver lining on an utterly black cloud what if you tell the players that the 30 year mark (or 10, or 1) and keep the conspiracy going is to try and decode what the various SETI noise means to unlock the remaining pieces of a way to avoid or avert the disaster, at least for Earth?

(Quick aside: what is your user avatar?  I've seen you use a photo of a mini of it before, too...)

Quote from: Rincewind1;700406First of all, I'll get on my high horse - or perhaps I won't, I've spilled enough bile lately.

No, I think there was some good realtalk in your opening paragraph; to be honest this is really the only place I post anymore, and I assiduously avoid "theory" discussion generally speaking.  I think G/N/S is a load of shit, and celebrity 'bloggers all need to be packed into a bus and driven off a cliff outside of GenCon (are there any good high cliffs in Indiana, though?)

QuoteFirst of all - I'd shorten the timespan of the event, from 30 years to say, 3, or even a year. 30 years is a huge timespan in an RPG (even assuming 1 year = 1 game session), I'm not sure how the material'd hold for such a lengthy campaign. You also avoid the "we still got 20 years to go, let's slack off a bit"removed - the shorter the time before Event, the quicker stakes generally rise. While on that subject - as Opa noted, this is a bit of an "experimental" play, most of enjoyment is depending on a heavy immersion, and the topic you're immersing into isn't a very bright one, so there's also the issue of being simply tired of the gloom of the situation. Which is why while I agree it's definitely not for a one shot (because the connection between a player and his/her character simply'll not be entirely developed), I think it's an idea best served for a relatively short campaign (10 - 20 sessions), so that players aren't simply tired and don't go into "woe is me" territory.

I think you're right about the timeframe.  Ten years is probably enough, thirty tends towards "so what" territory: we're all middle-aged, so we'll die a bit younger than our average lifespan would have dictated, so what.  Ten is "long enough that we don't just give up in despair, close enough that we have a vested interest in doing whatever we can to keep things quiet or try to find some kind of solution" (see: interpreting SETI messages)

QuoteI like the premise of secret agents keeping the conspiracy up, with players being part of conspiracy, rather than opponents of it - a nice change of pace. I'd be ready for Player versus Player conflict though, as I suspect inevitably one of the players will rat the conspiracy out to the public, and I think it'll be only fair that players' unit takes care of their own mess. Plus, it gives a very nice RPG hook to something that'd otherwise be better served as subject for a novel or film - after all, not that many people'd like to play 20 sessions of Milkman Pondering The End Of The World. I'd suggest making at least one high - ranking NPC, who'd eventually try to track the "weakest link" in the group, and recruit him over to his cause - the one that'd reveal the secret to the world. In fact, I'd have the first session start with PCs being sent over to kill a whistleblower before he gets to Russia - you know, hammer the Snowden iron while it's hot . Same for the Nuclear War angle - I'd make an adventure somewhere in the middle of things, that one of Nuclear Powers' president, previously who knew nothing of it, has just learned and decides to nuke everyone, and barricaded himself with an elite team of bodyguards, the whole Agency descending on the presidential palace in a brutal slaughter - whether or not they succeed, the game turns into post - nuclear apocalyptic play.

I like the Snowden angle, also the whole "world leader goes nuts, locks himself inside a command facility, tries to start a nuclear war" angle.  Now how do you explain the sudden insanity, the need to sanction that leader to a world ignorant of the coming Rip?

QuoteThere's also the question about inevitableness of the event - is it really inevitable? Or does some McGuffin come to pass, that saves the situation? Or perhaps the scientist simply got it wrong? It's a tough question, but I think it's best to keep the situation indeed hopeless - otherwise it may be a bit of a dick move, considering what terrible things the PCs probably did to keep the conspiracy, for all their deeds to suddenly turn worthless.

Yeah, that's the thing...the short story mentions - peripherally - trying to figure out if other "nearby" stellar civilizations were sending research information to Earth in hopes that we could stop or reverse the damage or what, but decoding exactly what signals they were sending wasn't possible...the protagonist mentions that a survival bunker was being built that would outlast the local effects of the Rip by perhaps a half-hour, to continue to study and do research in one final attempt to if not stop or survive then at least to understand what was happening a bit better.

QuoteAs I wrote earlier, there are also people who just dislike being put in a hopeless situation in gaming - so make sure your group is okay with that. Though I'd actually suggest you make this delicately - personally, I'd not tell the group out of character that the situation is definitely hopeless, but that's just because I'm a horrible bastard (and I think an OOC delusion of hope'd be an important element of an IC delusion of hope). Then again - you probably know your friends well enough to know how they'll react to such a premise, it's just one of those topics I'd not play with a "random recruitment" gaming group, so to speak.

It'd definitely require a thorough...screening? of players.  This isn't a "take this to a 'con, find a random group to play it with" type of game.  Well hey we can go play the Fellowship in that guy's Lord of the Rings scenario where we have a chance to fight the Balrog and so forth, fully realized in Dwarven Forge with hand painted miniatures...or we can go play this guy's scenario that sounds like its out of an episode of The Outer Limits if it was directed by Lars von Trier.  (I know where I'd be with my beardy self.)

QuoteAs for media and inspiration, outside of what was mentioned already -  I suggest Melancholia by Lars von Trier, mentioned before On the Beach, Threads/When the Wind Blows (not as much for the nuclear pondering themselves, but for psychological profiles of people who suspect they're witnessing the end of the world). On the Beach perhaps most importantly, because I think you'd draw an easy parallel between the submarine's crew and the PCs/NPCs working for the Agency. For the Agency itself, aside from le Carrey stuff (I know it's about spies, but I think it can serve a well inspiration here as well), oddly enough, I'd suggest Laundry Files, especially the latter parts, as they deal more and more with the incoming apocalypse.

I've seen most of those (and read up on Melancholia), I'll scope out Laundry Files.  And, since we're on the topic, if I may make a recommendation try 4:44 Last Day on Earth, or Seeking a Friend for the End of the World.

Thanks for your continuing input.