Hey guys,
So, based in part on the comments from here and partly due to a plyer at last EnWorld (Natalie) I have a rough draft of Iridium V2. It is 9 pages currently but I need to add some stuff.

So far, I think I need:
1. Better (or any) explanation of Fortitude and Areas.

2. Consider adding a means to trade initiative standing for bonuses/minuses on skill checks. Thanks Clash!

3. Add some templates?

4. Update the OGL.

Things I would like you to look over:

1. Page 10 : Weapon Specialization : Good, Bad or useless? It could be useless since it is really just another way to buy up your Weapon Use Skill. It is an artifact from V1.

2. Page 1: Character Creation : Easy? Pain? Confusing?

3. Page 11 : Character Sheet : Opinions?

Iridium V2


Thanks,
Bill

I thought this was going to be "light", *LOL* it's pretty solid engine so far, my only concerns are I really don't like making two checks to see where a hit goes--it makes more sense to me that this is the default situation (you get a successful Knife use roll to hit WHERE you want.)

Then I'd add an option for a "wild strike" used for attacking either hastily or with no skill that uses the random roll location (but with a small bonus to hit, and perhaps an initiative bonus as well.)


It just seems sucky to have to make a skill check "twice" to hit something where you want (yet other skill usages are single tests)

The game still seems on the heavy side for me. (Not that such a thing is bad)--but how often are all the attributes used? All the skills?


Layout is good. Easy to read. Not fond of the character sheet "body map" it takes up too much space and its really hard to tell where to write what and access it quickly for Fortitude/Armor


Have you ever seen Top Secret/SI's body map? (I vastly prefer its to hit roll system to ANY other body map, but it uses two dice though I suspect you could do something similar with the D20...I'll think on it..that is if you care )

Quote from: SilverlionI thought this was going to be "light", *LOL* it's pretty solid engine so far, my only concerns are I really don't like making two checks to see where a hit goes--it makes more sense to me that this is the default situation (you get a successful Knife use roll to hit WHERE you want.)

Well, I think I have a different definition of light compared to others. I refer to whether I need to learn 100 pages of flaws and merits in order to have a shot playing the system much less running. At 9 pages, I call this light but I appreciate others might not.

My logic on to hit and targeting rolls. Essentially, you have two rolls in order to make a differentiation between hitting and where the hit goes. If we used the same to hit roll to determine the Targeting then we need to make a new Targeting skill (note: this is the way it is in Iridium Standard) and then we could have a check for each hit/skill on one roll, because it would be different. Otherwise we end up with always targeting if you hit dilemma. Man, I should really get some sleep.

Quote from: SilverlionThen I'd add an option for a "wild strike" used for attacking either hastily or with no skill that uses the random roll location (but with a small bonus to hit, and perhaps an initiative bonus as well.)

This could work. Essentially foregoing any targeting to improve init or to hit.

hmm, perhaps we could tie this back in. Say, targeting is based on increasing the Difficulty...say, by 10 - the rank of Targeting...or just by 5...then it drops to standard if you "Wild Strike".

Quote from: SilverlionIt just seems sucky to have to make a skill check "twice" to hit something where you want (yet other skill usages are single tests)

See, you really are using the skill in different ways. That's why it is "Weapon Use" and not "Hit the guy real hard Use".  

Quote from: SilverlionThe game still seems on the heavy side for me. (Not that such a thing is bad)--but how often are all the attributes used? All the skills?

It all depends. You could (and I have) run the game with the three groupings of the stats Body, Mind and Spirit. I just like a lot of stats. As has been said elsewhere, you don;t need it until you need it.

Quote from: SilverlionLayout is good. Easy to read. Not fond of the character sheet "body map" it takes up too much space and its really hard to tell where to write what and access it quickly for Fortitude/Armor

Most of my playtesters screamed for that chart. I used to have a little two column affair and they said they had trouble "visualizing" it. I think this one is a bit of a matter of taste. That said, yes, I will look at differentiating Armor and Body a bit more.

Quote from: SilverlionHave you ever seen Top Secret/SI's body map? (I vastly prefer its to hit roll system to ANY other body map, but it uses two dice though I suspect you could do something similar with the D20...I'll think on it..that is if you care )

I have not seen it. Is it just a human outline? I might be able to work with it.

I am always interested in feedback. I appreciate what you have done here.

Thanks,
Bill

Quote from: HinterWelt'

This could work. Essentially foregoing any targeting to improve init or to hit.

hmm, perhaps we could tie this back in. Say, targeting is based on increasing the Difficulty...say, by 10 - the rank of Targeting...or just by 5...then it drops to standard if you "Wild Strike".

Sounds good to me.

QuoteSee, you really are using the skill in different ways. That's why it is "Weapon Use" and not "Hit the guy real hard Use".  

Still it makes you have to do two rolls for one action--whereas most other skill checks are one roll for one action. It's adding an extra step, I'd just like all skill checks in or out of combat to be the same, or as close as you can get.

QuoteIt all depends. You could (and I have) run the game with the three groupings of the stats Body, Mind and Spirit. I just like a lot of stats. As has been said elsewhere, you don;t need it until you need it.

Indeed. One game I'm working on has eight and I have in the past regularly used this format:

Physical
 -Strength
 -Agility
 Endurance
Mental
-Strength
- Agility
-Endurance
Spirit
 -Strength...

You get the idea, I just started trimming things down a bit, because I realized  that in most games some things were hardly used--what's the difference between Mental Strength (Intellect/Intelligence), and Mental Agility (Wits/Flexibility/Imagination), or whatever you name them in play, really?  Or the difference between Mental Strength and Mental Endurance? Are they linked?  

The best version of the "nine block" for me was DC Heroes, and yours is NOT bad at all. (I like the different terms you use)
 I just want to know you are sure that's what you want to use and that it covers what settings you'll be doing well without adding extra material just for the sake of "maybe someone will use it.."

QuoteMost of my playtesters screamed for that chart. I used to have a little two column affair and they said they had trouble "visualizing" it. I think this one is a bit of a matter of taste. That said, yes, I will look at differentiating Armor and Body a bit more.

I like HAVING some visual representation, I am just not sure that one works so well. MY SF Game AEGIS, needs something very similar to track hit locations. I'm not adverse to body maps per se (They always need some arbitration because peoples bodies can contort strangely in the varied environs of combat--and you don't want a body map for each situation (there lies madness.)

QuoteI have not seen it. Is it just a human outline? I might be able to work with it.

I am always interested in feedback. I appreciate what you have done here.

Thanks,
Bill

Pretty much let me see if there is a PDF of the PC sheet somewhere.

Here is the TS/SI sheet. (Page 3, I otherwise am not fond of their PC sheet. It is meant to look like a dossier, but I think it wastes too much space...)


Anyway, I'm hoping it is at least marginally helpful.

Quote from: HinterWeltHey guys,
So, based in part on the comments from here and partly due to a plyer at last EnWorld (Natalie) I have a rough draft of Iridium V2. It is 9 pages currently but I need to add some stuff.

Just a note on the Stat Check, Bill - you say what kind of die to roll, but not what to do with it. Do you roll under the stat? Over? Compare to a difficulty? It is very unclear.

QuoteSo far, I think I need:
1. Better (or any) explanation of Fortitude and Areas.

Yep!

Quote2. Consider adding a means to trade initiative standing for bonuses/minuses on skill checks. Thanks Clash!

I suggest allowing the players to add a portion or all of their AGL to Hit or Damage rather than Init, but they declare it before rolling the die. i.e. Player A in your example might have risked 5 of his 10 AGL to add to his hit chance (+3) and damage (+2).

Quote3. Add some templates?

4. Update the OGL.

Things I would like you to look over:

1. Page 10 : Weapon Specialization : Good, Bad or useless? It could be useless since it is really just another way to buy up your Weapon Use Skill. It is an artifact from V1.

You cover it already in the Weapon Use. In this system, Weapon Spec would only have use if Weapon Use were broad and Weapon Spec Narrow - ie. Weapon Use (BLADE) Weapon Spec (SHORT SWORD) - but in that case Weapon Spec should either have a lower cost than buying up Weapon Use, or a better Bonus.

Quote2. Page 1: Character Creation : Easy? Pain? Confusing?

Fine.

3. Page 11 : Character Sheet : Opinions?[/QUOTE]

I think it's cool. I'd just use squarer boxes. The wide boxes make the figure look squat.  

QuoteIridium V2


Thanks,
Bill

An interesting idea was broung up on our forums about weapon speeds and init.

Weapon Speed and init

It would make everything much smoother....but a bit more complicated.

I am torn on this one.

Bill

Quote from: SilverlionStill it makes you have to do two rolls for one action--whereas most other skill checks are one roll for one action. It's adding an extra step, I'd just like all skill checks in or out of combat to be the same, or as close as you can get.

I think I see what you are saying but let me qualify in saying you ARE performing two actions or more precisely, modifying one action with another. So, you could just swing away and get whatever you hit or focus in and smack where it hurts.

That said, from a purely game mechanics POV I hear what you are saying.

Quote from: SilverlionIndeed. One game I'm working on has eight and I have in the past regularly used this format:

Physical
 -Strength
 -Agility
 Endurance
Mental
-Strength
- Agility
-Endurance
Spirit
 -Strength...

You get the idea, I just started trimming things down a bit, because I realized  that in most games some things were hardly used--what's the difference between Mental Strength (Intellect/Intelligence), and Mental Agility (Wits/Flexibility/Imagination), or whatever you name them in play, really?  Or the difference between Mental Strength and Mental Endurance? Are they linked?  

The best version of the "nine block" for me was DC Heroes, and yours is NOT bad at all. (I like the different terms you use)
 I just want to know you are sure that's what you want to use and that it covers what settings you'll be doing well without adding extra material just for the sake of "maybe someone will use it.."

Well, I have run Iridium Standard for something like 23 years. I have had something like 300 dedicated playtesters, maybe even more. There are definitely stats that get more use than others. Charisma is one of the lesser used ones but with V2 you will get even more use out of the stats since the combinations to make Skill Totals is not fixed. So, in one situation you may use Deception plus CHA, in another Deception plus APP, and in yet another Deception plus WIS. I have been running Iridium Lite with this mechanism for about two years and it seems solid.

Quote from: SilverlionI like HAVING some visual representation, I am just not sure that one works so well. MY SF Game AEGIS, needs something very similar to track hit locations. I'm not adverse to body maps per se (They always need some arbitration because peoples bodies can contort strangely in the varied environs of combat--and you don't want a body map for each situation (there lies madness.)

I do as well. For the past 23 years I have had a block man figure I used that worked well. People's comments would be "Oh, I see it now." I thought I would give this representation a try.

Quote from: SilverlionPretty much let me see if there is a PDF of the PC sheet somewhere.

Here is the TS/SI sheet. (Page 3, I otherwise am not fond of their PC sheet. It is meant to look like a dossier, but I think it wastes too much space...)


Anyway, I'm hoping it is at least marginally helpful.

Well, that is even more spifty than what I have been using. I agree that I am going a bit artsy here but I think it will have a good impression. I agree that I need to neaten up the Armor/Body split a bit more.

And yes, Always helpful. Thanks!

Bill

Quote from: flyingmiceJust a note on the Stat Check, Bill - you say what kind of die to roll, but not what to do with it. Do you roll under the stat? Over? Compare to a difficulty? It is very unclear.

Noted. Artifact from Iridium Lite. It should be "GM sets a Difficulty based on the difficulty of the check being made" and then you roll a d20 + stat.

I will correct.

Quote from: flyingmiceI suggest allowing the players to add a portion or all of their AGL to Hit or Damage rather than Init, but they declare it before rolling the die. i.e. Player A in your example might have risked 5 of his 10 AGL to add to his hit chance (+3) and damage (+2).

I will think about this. I think it would work with the Init changes I am contemplating but I am not sure. It makes giving up init REALLY painful. Still, I like the simplicity.

Quote from: flyingmiceYou cover it already in the Weapon Use. In this system, Weapon Spec would only have use if Weapon Use were broad and Weapon Spec Narrow - ie. Weapon Use (BLADE) Weapon Spec (SHORT SWORD) - but in that case Weapon Spec should either have a lower cost than buying up Weapon Use, or a better Bonus.

That is how weapon spec works, Weapon Use (Sword) Weapon Spec (Short Sword). So, I thought it should have the cost lowered as well but I wanted a second opinion.

Quote from: flyingmiceI think it's cool. I'd just use squarer boxes. The wide boxes make the figure look squat.

Yeah, I need to tweek the sheet a bit.

Thanks!

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltNoted. Artifact from Iridium Lite. It should be "GM sets a Difficulty based on the difficulty of the check being made" and then you roll a d20 + stat.

I will correct.

That's what I remembered from before, but it didn't actually SAY that!

QuoteI will think about this. I think it would work with the Init changes I am contemplating but I am not sure. It makes giving up init REALLY painful. Still, I like the simplicity.

One idea is to tie in Aim to Init. I like Tim's Wild Strike idea, but how about reversing it? Aimimg costs Init, and there's no extra roll. If you say you are Aiming, it costs C init points. Not aiming gives you a Wild Strike and a roll - maybe by the GM.  

QuoteThat is how weapon spec works, Weapon Use (Sword) Weapon Spec (Short Sword). So, I thought it should have the cost lowered as well but I wanted a second opinion.

Cool. You can either reduce the cost of Weapon Spec, or increase the bonus. Either way, you gain benefit from it.

QuoteYeah, I need to tweek the sheet a bit.

Thanks!

For a first draft, it looks cool.

-clash

Linda and I talked at lunch and she came up with an interesting idea...Drop rounds and initiative entirely...

You would have weapons speed, actions speed and they would just work off of a free flow combat scene. So, maybe have an initial "Who goes first" mechanic but after that you have speed of your actions/weapons metering the interaction. So, for example:
Dagger - Speed : 5 Segments
Zwei-Hander - Speed: 10 Segments
First Aid : 10 Segments
Movement : 1 Segment per AGL (1-10) meters.

Determine who goes first. Might be as simple as the guy who says "I whip out my Dagger and stab!!!" first.

So, Seg 1: Dagger Boy attacks
Seg 6 :Dagger Boy again
Seg 10 : Zweihander
Seg 10: Medic!!! First Aid Starts on Dagger Boy.
Seg 20: Medic finishes first because he has the higher AGL.
Seg 20 : Zweihander puts the medic out of his misery.
And so on...

Second idea: Targeting: Linda liked the Target by degree but I alreasy have the Armor Piercing idea tied to it. We might want to look at splitting it out to its own skill again. So, you would have Targeting (Short Sword) like in the olden days. You would roll your attack and use that to determine whether you targeted AND if you hit.

How's that grab ya?

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltLinda and I talked at lunch and she came up with an interesting idea...Drop rounds and initiative entirely...

You would have weapons speed, actions speed and they would just work off of a free flow combat scene. So, maybe have an initial "Who goes first" mechanic but after that you have speed of your actions/weapons metering the interaction. So, for example:
Dagger - Speed : 5 Segments
Zwei-Hander - Speed: 10 Segments
First Aid : 10 Segments
Movement : 1 Segment per AGL (1-10) meters.

Reminds me a lot of AD&D2E's weapon speeds, mind you I like that. Although I think I'd simplify a bit. Probably sounds more complicated than it is but like this:

Class weapons as Fast, Average, Slow

Fast weapons goes every segment "block", Average every two segment "block" and slow every four segment blocks.  

Fast weapons: Daggers, Hands, etc.

Average Weapons: swords in general, hammers, bows, normal two handed weapons.


Slow weapons: crossbows with loading mechanisms, heavy two handed weapons (mauls, two handed swords)

However someone with a faster weapon can can hold an attack to interrupt their foe--so the person swinging the two handed battle maul, can have the dagger person go "I leap in and strike" on the maul wielders segment. The catch is unless he takes out his foe with the dagger (wounded to a level he can't continue) he then gets no defense against the slower attack. (still needs a to hit roll)

I think this is how it works anyway. I just want to streamline when weapons go, so we don't have a big chart we need to look at for every weapon.

QuoteSecond idea: Targeting: Linda liked the Target by degree but I alreasy have the Armor Piercing idea tied to it. We might want to look at splitting it out to its own skill again. So, you would have Targeting (Short Sword) like in the olden days. You would roll your attack and use that to determine whether you targeted AND if you hit.

How's that grab ya?

Bill

Give me an example of this in use with all rolls used/segments etc?

Quote from: SilverlionReminds me a lot of AD&D2E's weapon speeds, mind you I like that. Although I think I'd simplify a bit. Probably sounds more complicated than it is but like this:

Class weapons as Fast, Average, Slow

Fast weapons goes every segment "block", Average every two segment "block" and slow every four segment blocks.  

Fast weapons: Daggers, Hands, etc.

Average Weapons: swords in general, hammers, bows, normal two handed weapons.


Slow weapons: crossbows with loading mechanisms, heavy two handed weapons (mauls, two handed swords)

However someone with a faster weapon can can hold an attack to interrupt their foe--so the person swinging the two handed battle maul, can have the dagger person go "I leap in and strike" on the maul wielders segment. The catch is unless he takes out his foe with the dagger (wounded to a level he can't continue) he then gets no defense against the slower attack. (still needs a to hit roll)

I think this is how it works anyway. I just want to streamline when weapons go, so we don't have a big chart we need to look at for every weapon.

I like the idea of grouping. I might make it four classes but we will see.

Currently, I am having some concerns about the viability of all the segment counting going on. I have seen people have trouble remebering their initiative on a d6 system much less remembering "Oh, I go in 5 Segs...What Seg is this?".

I don't know. I will think about it.

Quote from: SilverlionGive me an example of this in use with all rolls used/segments etc?

Player: Defense 10, Targeting (Short Sword) 8, Weapon Use (Sword) 11
Foe: Defense 14

Assume Player wins init.

Player attacks his Foe. Swings his Short Sword. He rolls a d20 for a 15 + WU of 11 for a total of 26. Difficulty to hit is 10 + Defense of Foe for a total of 24. This hits in Seg1. He then targets by comparing the Difficulty (a moderate task of 20) of 20 to his to hit roll plus his Targeting Skill. The total is 23 which is greater than his Difficulty and means he can pick the location. Next action would come in Seg 3 when the player could swing again.

One roll. Depending on how we do the actual initiative it may be the only roll outside of damage for the combat segment.

Is that what you wanted?

Thanks,
Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltCurrently, I am having some concerns about the viability of all the segment counting going on. I have seen people have trouble remebering their initiative on a d6 system much less remembering "Oh, I go in 5 Segs...What Seg is this?".

THAT is the trouble with non-round/segment/stream play. EVERYONE screws up their segment! The best idea I know to keep track of it is each init type = a die type - d4, d6, d8, d10 - and the players and GM use dice to track their turn, incrementing their die by one each segment. Everyone goes when they flip to 1.

George has d4
Pete has d6
Martin has d10

Bad guys have d8

Everyone starts at 4 on their dice, because 4 is the lowest number and nothing is going to happen before that. George increments to 1, and the rest increment to 5. George goes. George increments to 2, Pete, Martin, and Bad Guys to 6. Increment again, George to 3, Pete to 1, Martin and Bad Guys to 7. Pete goes. Increment again, George to 4, Pete to 2, Martin and Bad Guys to 8. Increment again, George and Bad Guys to 1, Pete to 3, and Martin to 9. George goes. Bad Guys go. Etc.


If you are going to go that way, I recommend this method.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceTHAT is the trouble with non-round/segment/stream play. EVERYONE screws up their segment! The best idea I know to keep track of it is each init type = a die type - d4, d6, d8, d10 - and the players and GM use dice to track their turn, incrementing their die by one each segment. Everyone goes when they flip to 1.

George has d4
Pete has d6
Martin has d10

Bad guys have d8

Everyone starts at 4 on their dice, because 4 is the lowest number and nothing is going to happen before that. George increments to 1, and the rest increment to 5. George goes. George increments to 2, Pete, Martin, and Bad Guys to 6. Increment again, George to 3, Pete to 1, Martin and Bad Guys to 7. Pete goes. Increment again, George to 4, Pete to 2, Martin and Bad Guys to 8. Increment again, George and Bad Guys to 1, Pete to 3, and Martin to 9. George goes. Bad Guys go. Etc.


If you are going to go that way, I recommend this method.

-clash

I have had some folks suggest a "Segment Ladder" on the character sheet. That could work if it is as simple as marking your segment you would go on or the like. The issue I have here is I hate the idea of having a sub-system so complex that it requires its own documentation. Yeah, I know, character sheet is documentation for the system.

Your method would work too but I think it king of defeats the reasons I am considering this timing mechanism, fluidity and flexibility. Essentially, this is just rounds. Yeah, there are some segments in between but their meaning is reduced.

I do appreciate the input though Clash. I fear we may need to fall back to the old way of doing things. I know that works.

Bill

So, a thought to make it easier to track.

A Round = 20 segments.

Tracking mechanism on the sheet here:
First Draft V2 Sheet

Example Speeds:
2-hander : 10 Segs
Dagger : 5 Segs
First Aid : 10 Segs
Pick Lock : 20 Segs or more

You roll d20 + AGL for first go in the round. This is merely a declarative function not an attack issue. So, everyone is on the same cycle. Highest init goes first and it counts down. They declare their first action.

Example:
Player A wins init : I will swing my 2-hander. Roll roll, I hit for 34 points to the 3.
Player B: Next init. I swing my short sword (6 Segments). Miss.
Foe: Stabs with dagger. Roll, hits Player A. Player A parries (he still gets them free as part of his parry skill. Think of it as parrying as you attack.).
End of 20 Seg...
At 15 Seg...
Foe: Foe stabs again. Hits for 19 points (Example of Open Rolling) to the 1 of Player A. Player A does not have Armor and goes down.
...
Seg 14.
Player B : Swings Short Sword. Hits for 14 points targeted to the 3.
Player C Moves to Player A to administer First aid.
Seg 10.
Player C Begins First Aid (10 Segs).
Foe: Foe stabs at Player B who is protecting Player C. Misses.
Seg 8.
Player B swing again. Pierces Armor, dealing 29 to the 1 killing the foe.
Seg 1.
First Aid administered.

I am still not sure if we should have attacks go at the beginning or the end of the Segment count. The above example has it at the beginning which i favor for the attacks but I think actions will have to be prolonged allowing for the interruption of an action; i.e. Foe attacks Player C disrupting thier First Aid attempt.

The Character Sheet has a segment chart that Skynet on the HinterWelt boards suggested. Purposely positioned next to the edge of the sheet to allow for a paper clip to be positioned and moved to track the next action segment.

Thoughts? On timing above? Character sheet?


Thanks,
Bill