One thing I see again and again in SF RPGs is people shipping bulk cargo from system to system. Iron ore. Wheat. Cattle. This is WRONG! This would never happen! Why? Because it would always be cheaper to use first world-based resources and then system-based resources. SF RPG designers frequently forget that these other worlds are, in fact, worlds; and have the resources of an ENTIRE WORLD to draw on. If they are a spacefaring culture, they have the resources of an ENTIRE FREAKING SYSTEM to draw on.

So what would be traded? Some examples:

Between High Tech worlds:

Intellectual properties - patents, copyrights, rights to produce locally. Prototypes.
Passengers.
Specialty and luxury items. Liqueurs. Rare and exotic foods.
Artwork.
Mail and other communications - if there is no FTL Comm.
Software.
Custom Robotics.

High Tech to Low Tech:

Mass produced low tech items - perfect swords or rifles cranked out ultra-cheaply in robotic factories.
Exotic High Tech fashions and items which cannot be made locally.
Luxury Items.
Fool proof tech - everlasting flashlights, ultrahard knives, unbreakable tools.
Medicines.
Tourists.

Low Tech to High Tech:

Artwork.
Hand Crafted Items.
Servants and Craft Labor.
Low mass/High value items like gemstones.
Specialty foodstuffs and liqueurs.

Hope that spawns ideas.

-clash

I think depending on the destination regular foodstuffs might still be viable- i mean it's going to take a lot of money to set up a swath of farmland on an airless moon. It would proabably be cheaper to bring food in, especially oif things like machinary and tech were already on the way.

Although i agree for the most part clash, i think this is a little simplistic.

What if a particular system can't/doesn't grow something like grain? It is likely that it will have an equivalent, but it's also possible that importing it would even qualify as a luxury food item on the planet that doesn't have it. Basically i think that cultures and environments, as well as tech levels, need to be taken into consideration.

Quote from: AosI think depending on the destination regular foodstuffs might still be viable- i mean it's going to take a lot of money to set up a swath of farmland on an airless moon. It would proabably be cheaper to bring food in, especially oif things like machinary and tech were already on the way.

Intensive hydroponic plant cultivation would be far cheaper than imported foodstuffs. On an airless moon, there's no lack of space or minerals. It would also have the side benefit of helping refresh the air. Meat would be in the form of fish, rodents - particularly guinea pigs, who were originally bred for food - and domestic fowl, not cattle and pigs. Easier to keep, small, far more efficient in terms of food mass created:resources expended ratio, and easier to keep clean. Beef and pork would be imported luxury items until the colony grew into a critical mass able to support raising them. They wouldn't be staples, in any case.

-clash

How do you determine what is cheaper? What is the primaary expense in transport- feul? In traveller you can scoop low grade fuel from gas giants, making it free. this would pretty much make taking anything, anywhere worth your while.

Quote from: One Horse TownAlthough i agree for the most part clash, i think this is a little simplistic.

What if a particular system can't/doesn't grow something like grain? It is likely that it will have an equivalent, but it's also possible that importing it would even qualify as a luxury food item on the planet that doesn't have it. Basically i think that cultures and environments, as well as tech levels, need to be taken into consideration.

Grain isn't a necessity. Starch is. Potatoes or cassavas, for example, would be a much more suitable starch producing plant for a starting colony than grain, producing much more yield per mass. They also grow well even in the poorest soils. Any place that couldn't produce potatoes - all you need is a few common minerals, water, oxygen, light, and tending - would have nothing worthwhile at all in it, and wouldn't be settled.

-clash

Quote from: AosHow do you determine what is cheaper? What is the primaary expense in transport- feul? In traveller you can scoop low grade fuel from gas giants, making it free. this would pretty much make taking anything, anywhere worth your while.

The primary expense in transport is the means of transport itself and the crew needed to tend it. Whether or not fuel is cheap, interstellar ships are expensive.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceThe primary expense in transport is the means of transport itself and the crew needed to tend it. Whether or not fuel is cheap, interstellar ships are expensive.

-clash

And so are ocean going vessels, yet they transport food all the time. I see your main point, but i think that it assumes a certain kind of setting.

Quote from: One Horse TownAlthough i agree for the most part clash, i think this is a little simplistic.

Hi Dan:

Of course it's simplistic, Dan! Those were examples, not an exclusive list! But the the principle logically holds for any but edge conditions. Sure we can all think of a few scattered instances where special conditions make the principle invalid, but for the vast majority of cases the principle holds.

-clash

Quote from: AosAnd so are ocean going vessels, yet they transport food all the time. I see your main point, but i think that it assumes a certain kind of setting.

Ocean-going vessels are orders of magnitude less expensive per ton than interstellar ships, and the distances travelled far smaller. I am assuming a fairly classic travelleresque setting, BTW.

-clash

Here's a simple formula to get your basic cost of transport:

((Cost of fuel expended) + (crew wages over period) + (consumables expended)  + (cost of vessel over period) + (insurance costs over period)) * 1.5 = Base Cost of Transport (BCT)

Cost of Vessel over Period would be the mortgage or lease cost of the vessel divided by the mortgage or lease period and times the period in question. If you don't have a mortgage or lease cost, it would be the book value divided by the depreciation period times the period in question.

If you are speculating, that is buying goods in system A and selling them in system B as opposed to delivery for hire, you should also add in the cost of the trade goods.

The times 1.5 is a factor to account for incidentals like repairs.

This amount has to be bettered in the Payment for Goods Delivered (PGD) for the ship to make a profit. Payment for goods delivered can be value of the goods sold, payment for delivery, or a combination. The PGD also has to be matched to the Base Cost of Transport on the outbound journey, as below:

BCT Inbound + BCT Outbound < PGD Inbound + PGD Outbound

This is a very dumbed down but fundamentally sound method, good for any setting from fantasy to SF. There are interesting things you can do like arbitraging, but that's beyond the scope of a little post on the net.

-clash

Not defending food transport and I take your side on standard food stuffs. However, I would not underestimate luxury food stuffs and the quantities involved. In Neb, the ITO has set a Trade Balance Agreement where food shipping is concerned. Where ever you ship food, they must ship fertilizer/nitrates back. For instance, the Gren (cat like race) have a sweet spot for farina like grains. They import it by the metric ton. It is expensive but not beyond the budget of the average worker but it is a luxury.

That said, the bulk of interstellar (in Neb) trade falls into the categories you mentioned with a bent towards luxuries since they give the best return. However, close behind them are high tech gadgetry and refined goods.

Bill

I definitely agree with your main point, but i think there would be exceptions, and depending on the size of the setting- maybe a lot of them. One of the main characteristics of my setting is its age. The space age is tens of thousands of years old, areas are continually being depopulated and repopoulated, and there is of course, still a frontier (afterall space is rather sizable). This age has created a system where there are many, many old ships that have long since been paid for. there is an entire culture of permanantly nomadic free traders who own all their own ships and have for the duration of their nomadic history. Also on the frontier, where there is little law enforcement there are stolen ships and what not.  Basically, not everyone is paying a mortgage or even insurance, and the further you get from the center of things the more unconventional things become. Banks and insurance companies are not going to finance/insure a ship that works the frontier, it's far too likely that they will lose out on their entire investment.
anyway. Bottom feeders go all over the place for amounts of money far below what big respectable, or even small and respectable amounts cannot afford.

Quote from: HinterWeltNot defending food transport and I take your side on standard food stuffs. However, I would not underestimate luxury food stuffs and the quantities involved. In Neb, the ITO has set a Trade Balance Agreement where food shipping is concerned. Where ever you ship food, they must ship fertilizer/nitrates back. For instance, the Gren (cat like race) have a sweet spot for farina like grains. They import it by the metric ton. It is expensive but not beyond the budget of the average worker but it is a luxury.

That said, the bulk of interstellar (in Neb) trade falls into the categories you mentioned with a bent towards luxuries since they give the best return. However, close behind them are high tech gadgetry and refined goods.

Bill

I never would underestimate luxury foods - they are right there in the example. My objections to food transport was that the costs involved make even staple foods into luxury foods. If the people on the receiving end want to pay luxury food costs for staples, then everyone is happy.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceI never would underestimate luxury foods - they are right there in the example. My objections to food transport was that the costs involved make even staple foods into luxury foods. If the people on the receiving end want to pay luxury food costs for staples, then everyone is happy.

-clash

It may not have been clear. I was agreeing in a verbose way.

Bill