If initiative was based on the skill/stat being used, as opposed to the usual DEX derivative such as Reflexes or Agility or whatever, would that be broken?

Say two characters: one wants to fight, the other wants to cast a spell. Instead of basing when they can act off their speed attribute, the fighter uses his Combat stat while the other uses his Magic stat. Given that these are likley to be comparable (as they are stats each excels at) does that mean combat will become bland as everyone has the same initiative scores potentially?

Initiative by stat is a cute way of organizing the fight, but it doesn't have anything to do with real life in my opinion.

If I were to make a realistic initiative system, characters would base their initiative bonus on the number of fights they have. Say, every three fights adds +1. Someone with 100 fights never loses initiative to someone with 2.

That, or I'd base it on who can attack from the furthest away. For example, my own martial arts use a lot of kicking but I mostly spar with MMA people. I almost always get to attack them before they attack me, even if they start the movement, simply because I'm better from further.

So sure, basing it on your skill emulates that, at least a little, and it beats the absolute shit out of basing it on flexibility.

Why does it have to be either or? Why not have a system that bases your initiative on the current Situation modified by Dex(Agility or whatever) a Mental Stat(bonuses if you are a quick thinker), Combat Ability AND Experience?

I'm pretty sure CORPS does it the way you explain.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;468726If initiative was based on the skill/stat being used, as opposed to the usual DEX derivative such as Reflexes or Agility or whatever, would that be broken?

That question is impossible to answer.

First, does initiative only determine who goes first or also how many turns someone has (like say Shadowrun)? Who goes first gets diminishing returns the longer it takes to win. If you can one-hit an opponent, going first is very important.

Then, without any information about the rules, one cannot evaluate the rules.

Quote from: gonster;468782I'm pretty sure CORPS does it the way you explain.

HackMaster Basic and A&8's does it also...

Quote from: greylond;468762Why does it have to be either or? Why not have a system that bases your initiative on the current Situation modified by Dex(Agility or whatever) a Mental Stat(bonuses if you are a quick thinker), Combat Ability AND Experience?

I had considered this, but it seemed an unecessary complication.

And yes, initiative for the purpose of deciding who acts first in combat. The usual stuff.

Complicated? In HMb you don't have to calculate it every time, just once. Add up all of your bonuses, write it down one time on the character sheet. Roll dice and bonus.

I always like the idea from original AD&D which is weapon speed+stat.  This mean that if you used a great-sword, it is heavy and slow so it went usually later in the imitative.   If you were casting a simple spell, it was usually quicker unless there were really bad rolls.

Quote from: Cranewings;468729Initiative by stat is a cute way of organizing the fight, but it doesn't have anything to do with real life in my opinion.

If I were to make a realistic initiative system, characters would base their initiative bonus on the number of fights they have. Say, every three fights adds +1. Someone with 100 fights never loses initiative to someone with 2.

That, or I'd base it on who can attack from the furthest away. For example, my own martial arts use a lot of kicking but I mostly spar with MMA people. I almost always get to attack them before they attack me, even if they start the movement, simply because I'm better from further.

So sure, basing it on your skill emulates that, at least a little, and it beats the absolute shit out of basing it on flexibility.

The only issue I see here is book keeping. However like you say, basing it on the relevant skill is a pretty close approximation (especially if it is skill-based combat----your Pistol skill kind of reflects how many gun fights you've been in for instance).

This is an issue I've debated for a long time and finally realized trying to base it on real-life fighting would probably not make the game enjoyable for most players. There are just so many variables and ways of looking at what goes into a real fight (for instance conditioning is one of the most important things, and it fluctuates a great deal from bout to bout, but most games aren't going to reflect that in any real way because it would make conditioning a mini-game within the game). I do think it would be interesting though to make a martial arts mini-game (since the focus could be on the combat mechanics).

To answer the OP, skill+stat makes logical sense to me, and doesn't look broken. And the great thing is it could be applied outside of combat as well for non-combat skills (with athletics skills or detection skills for example).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;483051The only issue I see here is book keeping. However like you say, basing it on the relevant skill is a pretty close approximation (especially if it is skill-based combat----your Pistol skill kind of reflects how many gun fights you've been in for instance).

This is an issue I've debated for a long time and finally realized trying to base it on real-life fighting would probably not make the game enjoyable for most players. There are just so many variables and ways of looking at what goes into a real fight (for instance conditioning is one of the most important things, and it fluctuates a great deal from bout to bout, but most games aren't going to reflect that in any real way because it would make conditioning a mini-game within the game). I do think it would be interesting though to make a martial arts mini-game (since the focus could be on the combat mechanics).

To answer the OP, skill+stat makes logical sense to me, and doesn't look broken. And the great thing is it could be applied outside of combat as well for non-combat skills (with athletics skills or detection skills for example).

Well, another problem with basing a game on real fighting is no one even knows what that means. Think about how many alleged bad-asses you have probably know, thugs, martial arts teachers, whatever, that were no better at fighting than any random average person, but people thought they were good because they assume that the person's ideas about fighting are what would actually happen - everyone thinks their friends are as good as Borne, because in your imagination you are always the perfect counter fighter and everyone else is slow and stupid, no one else is shooting.

If you made a game on real fighting, just imagine how irritated players would get when their first level characters break their hands punching or lose an action because the guy stabbing them is also grabbing their throat... or if the guy who wins initiative with the knife gets to make 6 attack rolls in a row because you keep failing your reflex saving throw...

Or when stabbing someone with a knife doesn't do any damage for 1d4 rounds, but punching someone does damage instantly, so you stab someone, get knocked out, and then they die on top of you.

This game would only be fun for the GM.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;468726Say two characters: one wants to fight, the other wants to cast a spell. Instead of basing when they can act off their speed attribute, the fighter uses his Combat stat while the other uses his Magic stat. Given that these are likley to be comparable (as they are stats each excels at) does that mean combat will become bland as everyone has the same initiative scores potentially?

A variant I've played around with (and could swear I've seen in a published game, although I can't think of what it would be) is to use Speed Stat + Skill Being Used to determine initiative.

So you might roll Brawn + Sword to determine how effective you are at hitting; but you'd still use Speed + Sword to determine when you swung the sword. (While the wizard would use Wits + Magic to determine how effective their spellcasting was; while using Speed + Magic to determine when they got their spell off.)