So, the Traveller initiative thread got me thinking about init in Iridium. First, by the gods, that Mongoose Traveller initiative blows my mind in a really bad way. All I can think about is the nightmare of spending 15 minutes every cycle explaining how to determine who is going first or worse yet maintaining my NPCs. O.k. so I think I have demonstrated I am a simple init kind of guy.

Currently, init in Iridium is a d6 modified by AGL based mods. All attacks (attacks are determoned by weapons) go off on your init. You can also take an action. Speaking does not count as an action. All actions are equal;i.e. run your alotted movement, first aid someone, whatever.

So, pretty simple and how I think old Traveller init worked if my memory serves.

Should I change it?

Observed issues that have come up over the past 20 or so years.
1. The biggest is that you get all your attacks in one blast. This means if you win init you can kill your opponent without them ever getting a shot off. I have always felt this was a feature but I am not so dense as to think many many players are wrong and I must be right.

2. Actions are all equal. This has always kind of bugged me and I have house ruled around it. Essentially, the Combat Round is roughly 10 seconds or one minute depending on how the group wants to split time up. That is a lot of time for combat but not so much time to pick a lock, apply first aid, perform field surgery, identify an artifact, etc. One thought would be to weight the skills into three categories with one being "combat" allowing for in combat skills, the second would be "multi-combat" which could span multiple combat rounds, and the third being "non-combat" meaning it takes more time than is feasible;i.e. hours.

3. How would magic fit in? Currently every thing goes off on the init of the player.

That is it for now but I feel I am forgetting something....

Bill

You don't need to get much more complicated than "do one thing on your turn" for a combat system with no active defense mechanic. If you want people to be able to split things up, I suppose you could split things into primary and secondary actions, like a simplified version of how DnD does it. And I suppose in that case a little something about holding actions until later in the round would be fine too.

Quote from: HinterWelt2. Actions are all equal. This has always kind of bugged me and I have house ruled around it. Essentially, the Combat Round is roughly 10 seconds or one minute depending on how the group wants to split time up. That is a lot of time for combat but not so much time to pick a lock, apply first aid, perform field surgery, identify an artifact, etc. One thought would be to weight the skills into three categories with one being "combat" allowing for in combat skills, the second would be "multi-combat" which could span multiple combat rounds, and the third being "non-combat" meaning it takes more time than is feasible;i.e. hours.

Do you already have a system in your basic mechanism for extended tasks? (E.g. WWs and SR4s Extended Roll, Travellers UTP with time as hardcoded part, SR1-3s Base Time etc.)
If so, I'd simply insert this and assign it to certain actions. If not, I'd put them to the basic mechanism as this might also be important outside of combat.

Quote from: HinterWelt3. How would magic fit in? Currently every thing goes off on the init of the player.

Is that a problem?
If it is, you could easily differentiate initiation of the magic and actual execution. For instance, you could force the mage channel his spell and wait for several actions until it is fully "on-line". This could even be turned into a mini-game where the mage gathers dice for his dice pool/points for his overroll test etc. and has every turn the choice to either sling the spell quickly but with low chance of success, or to go for maximum spell power but needing to wait out while the bullets pierce his cover.

Let the roll be when the init starts, then each thing done comes one later. The order they go off is determined by the player.

I have no problem with 1 minute combat rounds - been using them for years. They work great! You get off a shot or two a minute that's got a decent chance of hitting. The rest of your shots aren't really meant to hit - they're there to keep the other guys down - and the rest of the time, you're ducking bullets or diving for cover, or maneuvering for a better shot.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceLet the roll be when the init starts, then each thing done comes one later. The order they go off is determined by the player.

I have no problem with 1 minute combat rounds - been using them for years. They work great! You get off a shot or two a minute that's got a decent chance of hitting. The rest of your shots aren't really meant to hit - they're there to keep the other guys down - and the rest of the time, you're ducking bullets or diving for cover, or maneuvering for a better shot.

-clash

So, just to run it through.

Player A: Init 6
Player B: Init 4
Baddie: Init 2

Player A: Fire Rifle once on 6
Player A: Fire Rifle second time on 5
Player A&B: Player B fires first shot, Player A fires third shot On 4
Player A&B: Player B fires second shot, Player A is out On 3
Player B & Baddie: Baddie fires first shot, Player B is out 2
Baddie : Fires second shot on 1

So, do I understand you correctly?

If so, should we just continue the cycle even if we technically get into negatives? For instance, in the above if the Baddie had two more shots just continue to 0, then -1 until all actions are out. Alternatively, I could see folks taking neg modifiers to get all their shots off before the end of the round. hmm... not so sure on that one.

Thanks,
Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltSo, just to run it through.

Player A: Init 6
Player B: Init 4
Baddie: Init 2

Player A: Fire Rifle once on 6
Player A: Fire Rifle second time on 5
Player A&B: Player B fires first shot, Player A fires third shot On 4
Player A&B: Player B fires second shot, Player A is out On 3
Player B & Baddie: Baddie fires first shot, Player B is out 2
Baddie : Fires second shot on 1

So, do I understand you correctly?

If so, should we just continue the cycle even if we technically get into negatives? For instance, in the above if the Baddie had two more shots just continue to 0, then -1 until all actions are out. Alternatively, I could see folks taking neg modifiers to get all their shots off before the end of the round. hmm... not so sure on that one.

Thanks,
Bill

Exactly.

I like the concept of rushing shots to get them in.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceExactly.

I like the concept of rushing shots to get them in.

-clash

Think of it this way: I was slow on the uptake, and my window of opportunity is closing. Crap! Better to get those two last hurried shots off than miss it altogether! Or do I need to conserve ammo! Dang it! POW! POW!

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceThink of it this way: I was slow on the uptake, and my window of opportunity is closing. Crap! Better to get those two last hurried shots off than miss it altogether! Or do I need to conserve ammo! Dang it! POW! POW!

-clash

You're getting senial Clash, you are answering your own posts.

Yes, this is my thought. Linda does not like it though. She feels we are artificially creating time blocks instead of flowing. Then again, she thinks I am crazy to be reworking the system at all.

She does not mind the "Continual Flow" of setting an init at the beginning of combat, then ticking off actions as you go along, either attacks or actions. The downside she notes is that every action would need its own number of Segments to completion. So, for example, First aid may take 4 Segments while firing or swinging a weapon would take 1. If any are left over, we roll them into next round at the top of init. So, if we have 10 Segments to a round and the attacker had init of 1 and 4 attacks, then he would go on 1 with his first attack, then roll to 10. Downside would be you are rewarding slow init. Upside, it flows well. I prefer every round get closed out simply by letting the attacks tick off but let actions roll over.

The other cool thing with this i that we could look at implementing a bonus system like you have in your SC2 init system.

Hopefully I was not too confusing. I have not had my coffee yet.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltYou're getting senial Clash, you are answering your own posts.

Yes, this is my thought. Linda does not like it though. She feels we are artificially creating time blocks instead of flowing. Then again, she thinks I am crazy to be reworking the system at all.

She does not mind the "Continual Flow" of setting an init at the beginning of combat, then ticking off actions as you go along, either attacks or actions. The downside she notes is that every action would need its own number of Segments to completion. So, for example, First aid may take 4 Segments while firing or swinging a weapon would take 1. If any are left over, we roll them into next round at the top of init. So, if we have 10 Segments to a round and the attacker had init of 1 and 4 attacks, then he would go on 1 with his first attack, then roll to 10. Downside would be you are rewarding slow init. Upside, it flows well. I prefer every round get closed out simply by letting the attacks tick off but let actions roll over.

The other cool thing with this i that we could look at implementing a bonus system like you have in your SC2 init system.

Hopefully I was not too confusing. I have not had my coffee yet.

Bill

Nope! I follow, Bill! The reason I replied to my own post was that I looked at my own post like Linda did - like I was artificially imposing time blocks - and what I was aiming at was that it's all in how you look at things. I look at inititive as being when your window of best opportunity opens relative to others. There is no real need to specify a time at all. You could say that a round averages out to about a minute, but might be half that, or double that, or some other fraction/multiplier. Thus there's no real time block - it's all relative.

-clash

Hey Bill. You'll have to forgive me, but i don't know the system, so i'm only going on what you've posted here, with a bit of filling in the gaps.

Initiative = d6 + 'AGL' mods, right?

All actions take the same time right?

Here's my take.

Make some actions 'Immediate Actions' - that's 1 shot of a gun, pulling out a flask, swiping a card, whatever can be done swifty.

You do that on your 'total intiative' IE d6 + AGL mod.

Any non-immediate actions you attempt come on your AGL mod score only. So further shots come here, non-immediate actions come here (stuff that takes a bit longer to achieve, but you want to keep the 1 action in 1 round intact). If this is a negative number, you go on 1, but you get a negative modifier to the attempt equal to that negative number - you're cramming. or you take it into the next round - except now it turns into a positive modifier. d6 + AGL mod + unused intiative points.

In the following round, you use last rounds unused actions on the full intiative (un-used pistol shots etc), then you're back to the Immediate action on d6 + Agl, then cram or roll-over into next round again.

So it turns into do everything in 1 round, but suffer a bit for it, or suffer in round 1 and then get back to normal, subject to initiative rolls.

Quote from: One Horse TownHey Bill. You'll have to forgive me, but i don't know the system, so i'm only going on what you've posted here, with a bit of filling in the gaps.

Not a problem Dan. I am always eager to hear new ideas.

Quote from: One Horse TownInitiative = d6 + 'AGL' mods, right?

Yes, currently, but I am seriously considering going to a d10.

Quote from: One Horse TownAll actions take the same time right?

Currently, yes.

Quote from: One Horse TownHere's my take.

Make some actions 'Immediate Actions' - that's 1 shot of a gun, pulling out a flask, swiping a card, whatever can be done swifty.

You do that on your 'total intiative' IE d6 + AGL mod.

Any non-immediate actions you attempt come on your AGL mod score only. So further shots come here, non-immediate actions come here (stuff that takes a bit longer to achieve, but you want to keep the 1 action in 1 round intact). If this is a negative number, you go on 1, but you get a negative modifier to the attempt equal to that negative number - you're cramming. or you take it into the next round - except now it turns into a positive modifier. d6 + AGL mod + unused intiative points.

In the following round, you use last rounds unused actions on the full intiative (un-used pistol shots etc), then you're back to the Immediate action on d6 + Agl, then cram or roll-over into next round again.

So it turns into do everything in 1 round, but suffer a bit for it, or suffer in round 1 and then get back to normal, subject to initiative rolls.

Hmm, interesting. So, to see if I understand, let me do an example.

Init: (roll d6) 3
AGL Mod: +2
Total Init: 5
Immediate action: Fires gun on 5 for first shot.
Followed by: Fires second and third on 2.

EX2:
Init: (roll d6) 5
AGL Mod: +0
Total Init: 5
Immediate action: None.
Followed by: Starts First Aid on 1. He could take a penalty to do the action in this round, or go to the next round and finish with a bonus.

This could work. I will run it past Linda and she will ask "Waht is wrong with the old way?" and I will make sad puppy dog eyes.

Thanks,
Bill

Yep, the examples are what i was thinking of.

That'd work!

-clash