What I'm talking about here is how it may affect your immersion that you're playing...

... a pregen
... a PC you've genned up on your own
... a PC you've genned up with group input during the process / beforehand
... a PC you've genned up only for them to be "tweaked" by someone else
... a PC genned up by a wholly collaborative method with equal participation by the whole group

I'm running a poll on this on TBP here. Please stop by and vote!

Anyway broadly speaking this is where these discussions have led me in terms of game-design for a crunchy quasi-medieval fantasy game intended for immersion with complex interlinkage (partly secret from the players) between characters' backgrounds:-

stage 0:- the granny chat / brainstorming
 - anyone can chime in with ideas about the group of PCs as a whole
 - don't mention anything that could be unknown to any of the group
 - nothing at this stage is finally binding - it is just a suggestion/inspiration
 - the basic idea is to come up with potential answers to questions such as:-
 --- if the characters were together in a room speaking openly, how would they describe their group?
 --- how would they justify/rationalise the fact that they're together?
 --- which roles would they each describe the others as filling?
 --- how would they say they know each other?

stage 1:- gen up your character
 - with stats and as much background as you wish
 - as part of this process your character gets "Fate" points
 (you don't expend those yourself during play, but the ref expends them
 on your behalf in the basic version, and once spent, they're gone forever)
 - don't hardwire in links to other player characters, though you can include suggestions for these

stage 2:- specify how much leeway you'll give the ref-team to tweak your PC
 - giving more leeway grants you additional "Fate" points in a modest amount
 - you may specify nil leeway, total leeway or something in between
 (except for the openly known links between characters, where the ref-team have to be able to fit the players' suggestions together)

stage 3:- the ref-team tweak your character
 - going no further than this leeway allows.

All thoughts appreciated! (And votes on the TBP thread.)

I prefer character modelling as my go-to form of chargen since it was first introduced in MSH.

Player tells me what kind of character they want to play. If they know the system, then they can suggest stats. Otherwise I just stat it up. Players introduce thier characters to each other and decide on any connections that exist between them. And, blam, time to play. With my current group this process takes 5 -10 minutes.

There are things that affect immersion far more than how a character was generated.

For example, I find immersive play easier in campaign play than in a one shot because there is little room for character development in a one shot.

You might want to put your poll here too since many posters here can't or won't post on TBP.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;689100You might want to put your poll here too since many posters here can't or won't post on TBP.

Quite.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;689100There are things that affect immersion far more than how a character was generated.

Oh, I entirely agree - it's only late in the day that it has occurred to me that CharGen could be a major issue for some people's immersion. Because, for me, it's a total non-issue. The numbers say that I've been missing a trick though.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;689100You might want to put your poll here too since many posters here can't or won't post on TBP.

I may do, but there's no harm in waiting to see how the first poll pans out. It might lead to me refining my ideas as to what questions need to be asked. People who can't/won't vote on TBP can always post their views here.

This site is the best on the Net for brutally honest debate IMHO, but TBP is great for polls. And both sites, as well as UKRP and, dare I say it, story-games, are good for getting a variety of perspectives.

Can't I just roll my character up?

I find it a bit dull when that's how the game starts. If as ref I get to tinker with the PCs' backstories before the game, I can make sure that the players have enough material when the game starts to explore among themselves, which makes it easier to keep them entertained, and makes the game more fun for me to watch (as the ref).

Of course, the conventional approach of solo CharGen is perfectly suited for immersive roleplay for the majority of immersive gamers... but I want that extra spice.

Isn't immersion the thing where you make decisions in character in response to the environment? Isn't chargen pretty much definitionally part of the meta game? There may be better or worse ways to make a character, but I would have a hard time linking that with immersion as this site usually uses the term.

Quote from: beejazz;689132Isn't immersion the thing where you make decisions in character in response to the environment? Isn't chargen pretty much definitionally part of the meta game? There may be better or worse ways to make a character, but I would have a hard time linking that with immersion as this site usually uses the term.

Yeah, the only way it would even remotely affect it is if you got stuck with a character that for some reason made immersion harder (can't empathize with thier PoV, find them silly, etc).

No, there are a bunch more reasons, some set out in post #9 here, some in post #11 here, and other contenders in post #22 here. Most of these arise out of concerns more associated with the Forge and storygames than with the robust sort of gaming attitude that you get from the Pundit for example, but they can apply to gamers who play for immersion. They don't bother me personally, but I've had plenty of discussions with people who are bothered by them.

In a nutshell, some of these concerns are to do with:-

... how invested you feel in the character
... concerns about creative ownership (linked to investment in the character)
... how familiar you are with the character (stats and backstory)
... how easy it is for you to play the character (obviously linked to the previous one)
... concerns about power distribution between player and GM or among players
... concerns about trust and fair play (linked to power distribution)
... concerns about nasty surprises and even retconning

Obviously these "concerns" even where not obviously inherently directly connected with immersion can distract a player from achieving an immersive experience.

Creating a character does not affect immersion.  Creating a character is just setup for the game.  It's like setting up the monopoly board, passing out the money, and choosing a piece.  Character creation can be long or short, complex or simple, but it's not really a part of the playing of game.

Quote from: hamstertamer;689144Creating a character does not affect immersion.  Creating a character is just setup for the game.  It's like setting up the monopoly board, passing out the money, and choosing a piece.  Character creation can be long or short, complex or simple, but it's not really a part of the playing of game.

Are you saying that how you set up a game of monopoly doesn't affect the experience of playing it? If I've given different players different amounts of starting money and different starting properties, but I know who has what money and what properties, then I know who I need to make alliances with, and who the most dangerous person at the board is. Other players may not have all this information, particularly with regard to money.

CharGen is obviously not really a part of the playing of the game, and it's a rare gamer who will be immersed in some fashion during CharGen itself, but the idea that the experience of playing the game itself is as a matter of logical necessity inherently completely and entirely insulated from the processes of CharGen - is completely ludicrous.

Quote from: Omnifray;689139No, there are a bunch more reasons, some set out in post #9 here, some in post #11 here, and other contenders in post #22 here. Most of these arise out of concerns more associated with the Forge and storygames than with the robust sort of gaming attitude that you get from the Pundit for example, but they can apply to gamers who play for immersion. They don't bother me personally, but I've had plenty of discussions with people who are bothered by them.

In a nutshell, some of these concerns are to do with:-

... how invested you feel in the character
... concerns about creative ownership (linked to investment in the character)
... how familiar you are with the character (stats and backstory)
... how easy it is for you to play the character (obviously linked to the previous one)
... concerns about power distribution between player and GM or among players
... concerns about trust and fair play (linked to power distribution)
... concerns about nasty surprises and even retconning

Obviously these "concerns" even where not obviously inherently directly connected with immersion can distract a player from achieving an immersive experience.

Those are for the most part, though, not concerns about immersion, rather concerns about the GM, system, and completely gamist concerns like balance.

some games,
Amber and Traveller come to mind have really immersive chargen.

Quote from: Omnifray;689096stage 3:- the ref-team tweak your character
 - going no further than this leeway allows.

Can you say more about how this works?  What's the ref team's goal?  Are they tweaking to taste, or are they just trying to put in hooks?  Does the ref team communicate the changes to the player?