Immersion is a state of mind sometimes you get it other times you don't.  There are certain tricks that you can use to help it happen but it's nothing you can actually put into a prioritized format for it to work.  Generally speaking you'll have points in a game where you click into it and then suddenly snap out.  It's just the brains natural reaction.  If you didn't snap out of it, well you're probably mildly retarded, and have a dissociative disorder.

I mean immersion in an RPG is no different then if you are reading a book with the radio on and you no longer hear the radio.  It's all just a trick of the mind where it suddenly focuses on one specific thing at the cost of other stimuli.

Quote from: flyingmiceThere are some people - note that I said some, not all - from the Forge who do not believe it is possible, are uttery confused by its existence, and are mystified why anyone would want it even if it were possible. I was told to my virtual face that I was in effect lying, and immersion as I described it was a type of insanity.

To me this screams that those people at the Forge have never experienced functional play or anything close to it.  It also very loudly tells me that they aren't as into gaming as they proclaim to be, and are actually very casual about it, if not mere observers.

I know JimBob is into gaming more than I would typically define as casual, so his stance on immersionism completely and utterly bewilders me.  I guess its either a side effect of Cheetohism (where he admits that his goals for gaming more or less never involve the game itself), or a definition thing.

I've been a musician, and I've played sports. In music, we called it being caught up in the flow - where you are so deep into the music that you can tell what the other musicians are going to do as they do it, so you can stop on a dime and change tempo or key or whatever without planning. In sports it's called getting in the zone, where you can feel where all the other players are, and know where you have to be and what you have to do as it happens so that the optimum result is achieved. It's not psychic or mystical, it's reading and processing a million different subtle inputs on a sub-aware level by shedding the voice in your head that yammers all the time, distracting you. I achieved this state in music, in sports, and in walking zen long before I came to roleplaying. It's the same thing. It can be light or it can be deep, or it can be in between, but it's the same state.  

-clash

I'm tempted to post my "double immersion" theory of HackMaster... :emot-geno:

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI'm tempted to post my "double immersion" theory of HackMaster... :emot-geno:

Calithena put me on to that a couple of years ago. Very clever, Colonel.

QuoteI've been a musician, and I've played sports. In music, we called it being caught up in the flow - where you are so deep into the music that you can tell what the other musicians are going to do as they do it, so you can stop on a dime and change tempo or key or whatever without planning. In sports it's called getting in the zone, where you can feel where all the other players are, and know where you have to be and what you have to do as it happens so that the optimum result is achieved. It's not psychic or mystical, it's reading and processing a million different subtle inputs on a sub-aware level by shedding the voice in your head that yammers all the time, distracting you. I achieved this state in music, in sports, and in walking zen long before I came to roleplaying. It's the same thing. It can be light or it can be deep, or it can be in between, but it's the same state.

I don't agree that it's the same.  Deep focus is not the same as what (I believe) the majority of RPG players are talking about.  You can get deeply focused on just about any activity, and any RPG.  I don't think you need to be in a pseudo-trance state to get "Immersed" in the game.

It's certainly not what I'm talking about -- and why I'm trying to link the idea with Suspension of Disbelief.

Maybe "Narrative Immersion" is a more descriptive term?  "Character Immersion"?  "Story Immersion"?  I'm not sure...

I like immersion. Seriously, and I think for me there are different levels of it.

For example in the game I ran Saturday as a GM, I was so into it by the second half that I felt like I was reading a comic book--that's a step removed from classic immersion, simply because often as GM I can't quite immerse the same way entirely as a player, there are some circumstances when I'm running NPC's (like the Gamesmaster in my recent game) where I can see through their eyes in that way, almost feel the tactile aspects of the world from his cane and the heavy weight of his body on the prosthetic leg he  has, to the mustache and goatee that hang just so that he can see if he looks down just so the edges of them.


As a player I get into the world, I can imagine quite fully the scents, sounds, point of views and so on of my character--what its about is the feeling of "being their"--I can do it with novels. It's pretty much a sensation that if I closed my eyes just a second and opened them, I wouldn't see this world but the world of the game. It of course is all about the power of imagination, about how it can suspend for a moment the truth of reality.


Consider this: Someone is watching a horror movie the dim glow of the TV/movie screen flickering as they watch and listen, suddenly a noise makes the on screen protaganist jump--and the WATCHER also jumps with their own fear sensation. Not for the character but because for that one moment the fiction of fear reached out and worked on that viewer. Their heart raced, their panic button hit, and boom, they jump a little in there seat.

That's all immersion is really, experiencing those moments of fiction that thrill us/excite us in the same manner as if we were "really" experiencing them.

Quote from: droogCalithena put me on to that a couple of years ago. Very clever, Colonel.

Thanks. I dunno if it's clever, but at the time I first posted it, it caused a small stir. I just posted the original posts in my blog here, for those with any interest.

QuoteConsider this: Someone is watching a horror movie the dim glow of the TV/movie screen flickering as they watch and listen, suddenly a noise makes the on screen protaganist jump--and the WATCHER also jumps with their own fear sensation. Not for the character but because for that one moment the fiction of fear reached out and worked on that viewer. Their heart raced, their panic button hit, and boom, they jump a little in there seat.

That's all immersion is really, experiencing those moments of fiction that thrill us/excite us in the same manner as if we were "really" experiencing them.

Yes, exactly.  It's linked to the fictional world / story.  It's not just being focused on an activity.

(deleted)

Quote from: StuartYes, exactly.  It's linked to the fictional world / story.  It's not just being focused on an activity.

OK. If you insist, I won't argue. I have other things to do.

-clash

I'm not sure, but I think that Judd might have been poking fun of the Immersion-nazis that have been emerging on the net recently who call themselves "Immersionists".

I'm not talking the "immersion" as "Wanting to get in character" or "wanting to pretend that you're in a fantasy environment for a few minutes" or "Want to act and roleplay in character", I'm talking "IMMERSIONIST!!!"

The two famous recent examples of this kind of Immersion that self-proclaimed Immersionists use:

1) Someone was saying that in his area (not just his group, but lots of local roleplayers), none of the players roll dice.  Rather, the person NEXT to them rolls the dice for them and tells them the result. The reason? Because dice-rolling and rules BREAKS IMMERSION!!! They get to stay completely in character while the action happens, all while the person to their left or whatever rolls their skills and tells them what they got.

I dunno, when I hear this I think turtleneck sweaters and wine glasses.

2) There is some sort of European heavy Immersionist crowd that basically 100% all the time stay in character when they roleplay. They don't do anything "active" to pursue conflict and the like in-game, but rather pursue the game at the pace that they would if they were really that character in-person.

So the often cited example of this is the actual play report where these dudes will basically go to a pub and watch a Football (Soccer) game "In Character" for hours.  That is, they may or may not give a shit about the game, and their comerades may not even be their real friends, but that is what their characters would do, as the character is a soccer lover who hangs out with these dudes.

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So yeah, that's "IMMERSIONISM" (edit: That's Immersionism with a "Big I", vs say "Wanting to stay in character", "Wanting to immerse into a world of fantasy", etc). This type of "method acting/do not make any physical actions that your character wouldn't do" style Big-I Immersionism is out there, and that's why it gets some ribbing.

-Andy

Remember that scene in Robert E. Howard's "Queen of the Black Coast" where Conan and Bêlit are talking about the gods and the afterlife and such, and he says that he doesn't think too much about it because the philosophers and such take care of that, while he prefers "the mad exultation of battle" and the pure joy of life, whatever it is, whether it's an illusion or not?

That comes to mind when I see people thinking so hard about gaming, like I used to.

I'm not saying it's pointless.  I'm just saying that I prefer to watch the blue blades flash and crimson, these days.  Been there, done that, came back, pass the ammo.

Quote from: GabrielTo me this screams that those people at the Forge have never experienced functional play or anything close to it. It also very loudly tells me that they aren't as into gaming as they proclaim to be, and are actually very casual about it, if not mere observers.

Uh, wait, so you're one of these Immersionist folks then?

That's cool and all, I guess. But I guess I'm just in the camp where I can, like, roll dice, or eat a snack at the table, and not worry about "Breaking the Immersion" and whatnot.

I mean, most RPGs use dice and all, I like the feel of rolling dice for myself, not having another player stepping in and doing it for me, telling me how I did, just so I can "keep up that veil".

I'm really curious; What else do you do to ensure that you have "total immersion" or whatever at the table?

-Andy

Quote from: Andy KI'm not sure, but I think that Judd might have been poking

*SNIP* 2 examples of seriously LOL people.

So yeah, that's "IMMERSIONISM".  It's out there, and that's why it gets some ribbing.

-Andy

See, i usually hang back and just glance over this theory stuff, cause it doesn't interest me and seems like a huge waste of time, but Andy's examples gave me pause.

i mean...christ, are all RPG Theory peeps that retarded??  this makes the 'Elven Apocalypse' and Furry crowd just seem like odd kinks.