Quote from: HinterWeltDefinitely. I also want to be clear, I am doing this as a method of evaluating the V2IS vs V2IL which seems really to be coming down to % vs d20. D20 is easier to add. So, some questions:

1. Do you think it is just too close to the d20 system? I mean, there is derivative then their is OMG!

2. Anyone have experience with roll under combat systems? Man, I am finding I have none. They must exist but I am getting old and don't remember.

3. If we go with a roll over for % combat (how it works now sort of), any ideas on how to do a roll over skill system? Just throwing it open for discussion. I could see a simple reverse of the current roll under progression (60, 40, 30, 25, ... instead of 40, 60, 70, 75...) but I was not sur eif that would work well and it still means combat is this separate roll off by itself, not very unified but close.

Thanks,
Bill

I've got quite a bit of Roll Under design experience, Bill.

Standard StarCluster uses d% roll under, with a skill ranking of 1 giving a base 45% roll under, and each 2 points of attribute above seven - i.e. 9, 11, 13, 15 - giving a bonus of 5%. Attributes range from 1-15. A typical adventurer stat of 9 gives a 50% chance.  

The big problem with roll under is "what do you do when skills hit over 100%?" Since you can trade points with SC between init, chance, and quality, that's no problem - extra points just get put into quality (damage in combat) or more rarely init. a roll of 100 is always a failure in SC.

The resons I went with a lower range of Attributes:

1: It gives the player a range of unskiled rolls depending on difficulty by multiplying the Attribute by 1-5. So, a difficult unskilled roll would be roll under Attribute on percentile, and an easy one would be roll under Attribute X 5 on percentile.

2: It makes it easy to slot in other TR systems - for example StarPool is roll Skill+1 d20 under attribute, count successes - and you can shift to d20 easily by using a rank of 1 = 9, +1 per rank, +1 per 2 points of Attribute over 7. I've got roll over and diceless variants, and even a risk die variant

3: You can preload all these things on the character sheet, so you don't have to do the math each time.

I think the numbers you are using are too large, even for percentile. They are awkward to handle. I would recommend working with raw percent only on the to hit roll, and making other numbers much smaller. Defense should be in the range 1-25, and Attribute bonuses should be in the range of 1-25. That keeps the numbers you are working with sane. That means pre-loading derivative numbers for defense and attributes.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceI've got quite a bit of Roll Under design experience, Bill.

Standard StarCluster uses d% roll under, with a skill ranking of 1 giving a base 45% roll under, and each 2 points of attribute above seven - i.e. 9, 11, 13, 15 - giving a bonus of 5%. Attributes range from 1-15. A typical adventurer stat of 9 gives a 50% chance.  

The big problem with roll under is "what do you do when skills hit over 100%?" Since you can trade points with SC between init, chance, and quality, that's no problem - extra points just get put into quality (damage in combat) or more rarely init. a roll of 100 is always a failure in SC.

The resons I went with a lower range of Attributes:

1: It gives the player a range of unskiled rolls depending on difficulty by multiplying the Attribute by 1-5. So, a difficult unskilled roll would be roll under Attribute on percentile, and an easy one would be roll under Attribute X 5 on percentile.

2: It makes it easy to slot in other TR systems - for example StarPool is roll Skill+1 d20 under attribute, count successes - and you can shift to d20 easily by using a rank of 1 = 9, +1 per rank, +1 per 2 points of Attribute over 7. I've got roll over and diceless variants, and even a risk die variant

3: You can preload all these things on the character sheet, so you don't have to do the math each time.

I think the numbers you are using are too large, even for percentile. They are awkward to handle. I would recommend working with raw percent only on the to hit roll, and making other numbers much smaller. Defense should be in the range 1-25, and Attribute bonuses should be in the range of 1-25. That keeps the numbers you are working with sane. That means pre-loading derivative numbers for defense and attributes.

-clash

See, Linda and I were driving around today looking for houses and I think we came up with a way to handle much of this.

Skills
Roll under, progress 40,60,70,75,80... Modified by derivations from stats (1-30). +2 % per level for out of class skill, +3% for in class skill. 05 or lower on a skill check will always make a skill check/ hit.

Combat
Roll on Weapon Use Skill - target's Defense. Defense now equals (AGL+CON+DODGE)/6. This should give us a range from 1 to 50 roughly. Multiple attacks based on weapons. Parry can still be used.

Example
Player A : 2-hander (2 ATT, 5d10), Defense 37, Weapon Use (Sword) 70, Targeting (2-hander) 50%
Foe : Short Sword (3 ATT, 2d10), Defense 32, Weapon Use (Short Sword) 90%, Targeting (Short Sword) 80%

Player A wins init. First Init he swings his 2-hander sword. Rolls his Weapon Use (Sword) at 70-32 = 38. He rolls a 62 and misses.

Foe Goes. Rolls WU(Sword) 90-37=53, rolls a 55 and hits. Compares 55 to Targeting and he Targets! Rolls 2d10 and gets 18 to the 1 or head.

Player A Swings. Needs a 38 and rolls a 35 hits and makes targeting for 42 to the 4 or chest.

etc...

Now, I appreciate that Defense might still be jacking with the %. We could divide by 10 which would be fine. But is this more in line. It nicely makes Stats, Skills and Combat all % and all roll under. It really does not alter the base system. It is an EASY convert to d20's for a nifty light version...

We may have a winner here.

Thanks,
Bill

Stupid double post.

Quote from: HinterWeltSee, Linda and I were driving around today looking for houses and I think we came up with a way to handle much of this.

Skills
Roll under, progress 40,60,70,75,80... Modified by derivations from stats (1-30). +2 % per level for out of class skill, +3% for in class skill. 05 or lower on a skill check will always make a skill check/ hit.

Combat
Roll on Weapon Use Skill - target's Defense. Defense now equals (AGL+CON+DODGE)/6. This should give us a range from 1 to 50 roughly. Multiple attacks based on weapons. Parry can still be used.

Example
Player A : 2-hander (2 ATT, 5d10), Defense 37, Weapon Use (Sword) 70, Targeting (2-hander) 50%
Foe : Short Sword (3 ATT, 2d10), Defense 32, Weapon Use (Short Sword) 90%, Targeting (Short Sword) 80%

Player A wins init. First Init he swings his 2-hander sword. Rolls his Weapon Use (Sword) at 70-32 = 38. He rolls a 62 and misses.

Foe Goes. Rolls WU(Sword) 90-37=53, rolls a 55 and hits. Compares 55 to Targeting and he Targets! Rolls 2d10 and gets 18 to the 1 or head.

Player A Swings. Needs a 38 and rolls a 35 hits and makes targeting for 42 to the 4 or chest.

etc...

Now, I appreciate that Defense might still be jacking with the %. We could divide by 10 which would be fine. But is this more in line. It nicely makes Stats, Skills and Combat all % and all roll under. It really does not alter the base system. It is an EASY convert to d20's for a nifty light version...

We may have a winner here.

Thanks,
Bill

This is very much in line with my suggestions. I like it!

-clash

O.k. So, revisiting initiative and OoC.

Edit: Good points by Skynet over on HinterForums

This is what I currently have down. It is serviceable but not very sexy. I am worried that I am trying to hard to be sexy, and will just end up complex and a pain in the toot.

Explanation of Segmented Init
Now, the alternative would be a Segmented combat. I have been thinking on this and what we could have is a combo of Clash's system and the Segmented one. Essentially, every round is capped at 20 segments. So, roll a d20 and add your d20 AGL bonus (0-6) and if it goes over, track it but your actions start on 20. You might have a lot of actions at 20 but it should shake out.

So, you can then spend your "extra" (any init over 20) and your 20 segments on pluses to hit or skill check. Alternatively, is you go slow, you can take minuses to up to a higher init. Initially, I was thinking a different cost to raise vs to lower. So, something like gain 1 init for a -5 or drop for +3.

If I do not have the segments, I cannot do the action. We would have weapon/action speeds so:
Large Weapon Att: 10 Segments
Medium : 6
Small : 4
Movement would be MR/20 with a min of 3 (Start, move and stop). So, a MR of 14 would mean 140 feet in one round or 7 feet per segment. Alternatively, just to simplify it I would offer something like 1/2 movement in 10 segs.
Simple actions : Ruled so by the GM would take an amount less than the full Round (Quick patch, Casting Effects, Activating magic/tech).
Complex would take the round (First Aid, Translations, Research)

If the GM rules that the action is Complex and would last into the next round (you have 10 Segs left but the action runs 15 Segs) then you loose all of next round completing the action.

Example: I roll a 23 init. I start on 20 and can purchase a + 9 to my Weapon Use/Skill check round. I could then Attack with my Short Sword twice (8 Segments) move 14 feet (2 segments) and render First Aid to a comrade (a variable time but probably the remainder of the round if not more).

PDF of Segment Char Sheet with Seg Tracker.

Example of Staggered Initiative
Player A: Rolls a 4 with an AGL d20 Binus of 6 for a 10.

Player B: Rolls a 20, rolls again and gets a 9 for a total of 29. He then adds his AGL d20 Bonus of 5 for a Total Initiative of 34.

Player C: Rolls a 1 with a 3 AGL d20 Bonus  for a total of 4.

Foe: Rolls a 12 with an AGL d20 Bonus of 4 for total of 16.
*****
Player B wins with a 34 and decides to move a short distance, then engage the Foe. He then uses a short sword for one out of his three attacks. .

The Foe goes next with a 16. He uses his Bite to strike Player B (initiative 16).

Player A may now start after the Foe has gone since the Foe had the Initiative (a 16 as opposed to Player A’s 14). He opts to move out of Combat. The GM asks if he will use his full movement and Player A says yes. This uses his action for this round. (initiative 10).

Player C holds his initiative to wait and see if anyone is hurt and needs First Aid.

One Cycle ends and combat rolls back to the highest initiative again, Player B with 34.

Player B swings his short sword on the Foe, striking and wounding him. (initiative 34)

Foe attacks with his Claw again (initiative 16) on Player B disabling him. Foe is done.

Player A fires his Bow (initiative 10).

Player C holds action again. (initiative 4)

Cycle restarts with Player B.

Player B swings his short sword on the Foe, striking and wounding him. (initiative 34) Player B is done.

Foe claws again on Player B. (initiative 16)

Player A fires his Bow (initiative 10). Player A is done.

On initiative of 4, Player C uses his First Aid, a Complex Action, to stabilize Player B. The GM rules that it takes two rounds.

Cycle Restarts with the Foe who is the only one with actions left.

Foe charges and Player A.

End of Round.
Round 2, reroll initiative.

Thanks,
Bill

Initiative still makes my head hurt. I really like the armour/damage idea on the Hinterwelt forum though.

Quote from: SeanInitiative still makes my head hurt. I really like the armour/damage idea on the Hinterwelt forum though.

Yeah, see I am trying to make it less so but I think i may be getting carried away with creating options in combat that do not need to be there...

Just for reference, the way it works in V1 is :
1. Roll d6, add AGL bonus for a range of 1 to 12.
2. Highest goes first.
3. All attacks (even if you have 5) or actions go on you init.

Repeat.

Thanks,
Bill