I have come to the conclusion that I don't ultimately know why I'm trying to design an rpg. I think I have good ideas for systems, settings and so forth, but not only do I not have any players, I don't really know what the point of doing it all is? In fact when I think about how rpg's work, I find myself questioning whether I actually enjoy them. I know that when I've written adventures in the past I've struggled to do so because of how rpg's work (you can't railroad, yet you need to write something). Yet I love reading rpg rulebooks, and feel compelled, beyond reason and explantion, to design. Something inside me wants to design one, and put it out there as a product (ie pdf).

I don't get it.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;250011I have come to the conclusion that I don't ultimately know why I'm trying to design an rpg. I think I have good ideas for systems, settings and so forth, but not only do I not have any players, I don't really know what the point of doing it all is? In fact when I think about how rpg's work, I find myself questioning whether I actually enjoy them. I know that when I've written adventures in the past I've struggled to do so because of how rpg's work (you can't railroad, yet you need to write something). Yet I love reading rpg rulebooks, and feel compelled, beyond reason and explantion, to design. Something inside me wants to design one, and put it out there as a product (ie pdf).

I don't get it.

Well, I think part of the problem is any writer who wants to create often does so because he has found current writings by others insufficient for his (or her) personal interests.

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to write a game--but I think you'll need a group at some point to help you hammer on the framework you've created. You could get a group together online. You could search for people local to you, and so on.

If you feel the need to write--don't neglect that.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;250011I have come to the conclusion that I don't ultimately know why I'm trying to design an rpg. I think I have good ideas for systems, settings and so forth, but not only do I not have any players, I don't really know what the point of doing it all is? In fact when I think about how rpg's work, I find myself questioning whether I actually enjoy them. I know that when I've written adventures in the past I've struggled to do so because of how rpg's work (you can't railroad, yet you need to write something). Yet I love reading rpg rulebooks, and feel compelled, beyond reason and explantion, to design. Something inside me wants to design one, and put it out there as a product (ie pdf).

I don't get it.

Maybe your creative urge springs from dissatisfaction with your current gaming? If that's the case, it may be useful to tackle the problem head on and start a thread on adventure design. Implement the advice you're given and see if things change. You may be surprised at the results.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;250011I have come to the conclusion that I don't ultimately know why I'm trying to design an rpg. I think I have good ideas for systems, settings and so forth, but not only do I not have any players, I don't really know what the point of doing it all is? In fact when I think about how rpg's work, I find myself questioning whether I actually enjoy them. I know that when I've written adventures in the past I've struggled to do so because of how rpg's work (you can't railroad, yet you need to write something). Yet I love reading rpg rulebooks, and feel compelled, beyond reason and explantion, to design. Something inside me wants to design one, and put it out there as a product (ie pdf).

I don't get it.

Is there any reason you aren't running/playing in a game currently other than you can't find players? I know this can be difficult in a less urban environment, and finding players who are into something other than D&D or WoD is pretty difficult anywhere. For decades now I have preferred to recruit new players rather than find old players.

If you would like some example adventures that use no railroading, to see how you would set one up, I could send you one of you PM me your email.

Good luck!

-clash

Quote from: Drew;250059Maybe your creative urge springs from dissatisfaction with your current gaming? If that's the case, it may be useful to tackle the problem head on and start a thread on adventure design. Implement the advice you're given and see if things change. You may be surprised at the results.

I'm not sure what you mean; I've wanted to design my own game ever since I got into gaming - and that was years ago! I don't think it's born out of any dissatisfaction with existing games or lack thereof (or with playing).

I wonder if roleplaying gaming is the answer. Perhaps I could find another outlet for wanting to design a game/system and realise a setting. Those, I think, are the two key aspects.

Quote from: flyingmice;250062Is there any reason you aren't running/playing in a game currently other than you can't find players? I know this can be difficult in a less urban environment, and finding players who are into something other than D&D or WoD is pretty difficult anywhere. For decades now I have preferred to recruit new players rather than find old players.

If you would like some example adventures that use no railroading, to see how you would set one up, I could send you one of you PM me your email.

Good luck!

-clash

No it's just where I live there is a complete dearth of gaming culture - it's been like that for a very long time. I haven't really played anything for a few years tbh.

With regards to railroading, the point is actually somewhat more complicated than I can probably explain. Really roleplying games strike me, these days, as a contradiction. They are part amateur dramatics and part wargaming and very few of them are comfortable with the mixture of 'improvisation' (ie pc's being allowed to choose their destiny) and 'script' (ie the adventure planned by the GM). Struggling with that schism has been one of the biggest problems I ever had as a GM. I can think of NPC's, schemes and places and whatnot, no problem, but accommodating the fact that PC's never do what you expect (or hope, according to your adventures) is a strange task. On top of that, combat is based solidly around many wargame principles but uses the imagination instead of a tabletop. If you think about that, GMing a combat with a few pc's and antagonists is one hell of a job. (perhaps miniatures really are the way to go!)

Anyway i digress.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;250133With regards to railroading, the point is actually somewhat more complicated than I can probably explain. Really roleplying games strike me, these days, as a contradiction. They are part amateur dramatics and part wargaming and very few of them are comfortable with the mixture of 'improvisation' (ie pc's being allowed to choose their destiny) and 'script' (ie the adventure planned by the GM). Struggling with that schism has been one of the biggest problems I ever had as a GM. I can think of NPC's, schemes and places and whatnot, no problem, but accommodating the fact that PC's never do what you expect (or hope, according to your adventures) is a strange task. On top of that, combat is based solidly around many wargame principles but uses the imagination instead of a tabletop. If you think about that, GMing a combat with a few pc's and antagonists is one hell of a job. (perhaps miniatures really are the way to go!)

Anyway i digress.

It has no schism if you give up the concept of plot. Just think in terms of of NPCs, personalities, resources, and goals. Story is a byproduct of game, not a prerequisite. I think you may be paralyzing yourself with unnecessary concerns, like "How can I ride a bicycle? Balancing on those skinny tires! How can I turn? What if I fall off?" You find out when you actually ride the bicycle, that none of these are big problems. Or Zeno's paradox - how can the arrow ever hit the target, if it goes half the remaining distance in half the time of the previous segment? Logically, it would never actually arrive at the target as each succeeding slice of time becomes smaller and smaller. Start with the facts - people can ride bicycles, people can hit targets with arrows, and people can GM without railroading. Work back from that and find out the method used. Starting from theory has some severe limitations.

Seeting up an adventure without worrying about player input is simple - set up everything you need in starting position, and only move things as far as the game has progressed. Bill the Butcher has a goal, resources, and a personality. Use these as a guide to what Bill does while the party does it's own thing. When and if the player's trail intersects Bill's trail, fun and chaos ensue. Don't think beyond where you are. If the players get interested in some other thing and never intersect with Bill, let Bill go his merry way. So Bill will probably reach his goal - so what? The players found something they thought more interesting and everyone had fun. Let them do what they want to do, and don't worry about old Bill.

-clash

Some games require more prep than others. The more prep you have to do to create an NPC, the stronger the temptation to think of all that effort as wasted if the PCs don't encounter it. I personally have run the same sort of game in many different systems. Use tools to lessen your prep time - that will always help! Some prep intensive games have automated chargen and other prep tools to ease your work load. Use them! I put a separate NPC creation section in my games with lots of NPC prep tools. You can create NPCs on the fly with them, then flesh them out later if you need to. Truly "lite" games allow you to create characters on the spur of the moment because the character concept is no more than a skeleton. There are lots of ways around this problem if you use the tools built in or bolted on!

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;250154Seeting up an adventure without worrying about player input is simple - set up everything you need in starting position, and only move things as far as the game has progressed. Bill the Butcher has a goal, resources, and a personality. Use these as a guide to what Bill does while the party does it's own thing. When and if the player's trail intersects Bill's trail, fun and chaos ensue. Don't think beyond where you are. If the players get interested in some other thing and never intersect with Bill, let Bill go his merry way. So Bill will probably reach his goal - so what? The players found something they thought more interesting and everyone had fun. Let them do what they want to do, and don't worry about old Bill.

-clash

What I'm saying is that I know this, but I always had trouble executing it.

Anyway this isn't part of the problem I first posted about; I just wanted to comment on the strange hybrid nature, contradictory to me in part, of roleplaying games.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;250228What I'm saying is that I know this, but I always had trouble executing it.

Anyway this isn't part of the problem I first posted about; I just wanted to comment on the strange hybrid nature, contradictory to me in part, of roleplaying games.

Gotcha. As for why are you designing RPGs, my guess would be that you believe that you can create something better than what's out there. I firmly believe that this is true for every designer - not just true in intent, but true in execution. You CAN create something better. Thing is, better is true for a limited, finite number of roleplayers. Certainly my games are better for ME. They reflect exactly my personal prejudices and style, and allow me to GM the way I prefer to GM without any impediments. This is also true for a certain number of others who prefer my style. I don't kid myself that most of those playing RPGs would prefer it to - say - D&D, or WoD. The problem with Fantasy Heartbreakers is that the designers deluded themselves into thinking exactly that - "If only people would come in contact with it, they would naturally all prefer it!" That's the Heartbreak part. This will not happen. Design for you, and for people who happen to be like you in significant ways, and there's your audience.

I don't mean to say in any way that the process of making a game suitable for public release is easy. It's bloody hard work. If you don't mind hard work, then you can do it. Most attempts smash and sink on those particular rocks, though. Then you will pull your notes out of a box a decade or two in the future and think "I wonder..."

If you are still happy to design, then there is no problem except actually doing the deed. You can satisfy yourself that you can, indeed, make a better RPG. If you want to continue after that, your goal would be to make a better rpg than your last one. The process continues.

Good luck!

-clash

i) Start or join a play-by-forum game, and/or use meetup.com.

ii) There are lots of board (and computer) games with a role-playing style setting, and role-playing style mechanisms, which aren't role-playing games. So you might want to look at doing one of those.

Quote from: Age of Fable;250269i) Start or join a play-by-forum game, and/or use meetup.com.

ii) There are lots of board (and computer) games with a role-playing style setting, and role-playing style mechanisms, which aren't role-playing games. So you might want to look at doing one of those.

1. I can't really play like that. I tried IRC once, but it did my head in. Playing online or via a forum just doesn't really work for me.

2. That's what I'm thinking of. Perhaps even a wargame - the advantage there is that setting design can be just as detailed but it doesn't have to be as 'strict' as for an RPG (eg, you can make the orcs all evil, for example; it won't matter so much). Though one of the reasons for wanting to do an rpg, in all seriousness, is that there are less moving parts (wargame needs miniatures and I don't make those!)

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;250228What I'm saying is that I know this, but I always had trouble executing it.

Anyway this isn't part of the problem I first posted about; I just wanted to comment on the strange hybrid nature, contradictory to me in part, of roleplaying games.

Then I have nothing. I understand your problem, but I just cannot relate to it at all. Good luck, though!

-clash

thanks

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;250376Though one of the reasons for wanting to do an rpg, in all seriousness, is that there are less moving parts (wargame needs miniatures and I don't make those!)

It might be an interesting exercise to try and make one using Piecepack, Icehouse, dice ('FlatlandQuest?'), or similar objects.