To get the typical objections out of the way: Assume that your goal is to represent sex differences in D&D mechanics. What is it like to represent a Human Male in D&D terms compared to a Human Female? What makes playing a Male character unique from a Female character, and vice-versa?

This is more of a theoretical thread but I have been toying with this idea for some time. I really like the idea of trying to convey sex differences in D&D. The typical reasoning for not wanting to have men and women distinguished mechanically is that in fantasy worlds with Dragons and Elves that these things are not meaningful. However as we've seen over the past few years the tendency has been not to emphasize distinctions between a Human and an Elf, or a Human and a Dragonborn, but rather to diminish and eliminate the meaningful mechanical differences between character races.

I think these two trends are related, and it creates a less authentic and less compelling vision for game worlds. This is also a big limitation in what types of "fantasy" is modeled by the game rules. Modern D&D where all sexes & races are basically interchangeable doesn't represent either the real world nor fantasy literature & film. Non-human characters can and should be taken to be distinctive, and works where alien races are not given unique traits are rightfully derided as non-authentic (Star Trek's human-with-rubber-prothesis). A book series like Wheel of Time is unthinkable unless there are real differences between men & women. Similarly, it makes no sense to have characters like Eowyn if men & women are simply interchangeable. Plotlines of fantasy films like Labyrinth or Legend emphasize different roles men & women have to play, rather than trying to map female roles directly onto men or vice-versa.

Sex (or reproduction generally) is also one area that can help to emphasize different fantasy races from each other. Human males are typically larger, stronger, and have different cognition than women. However, this pattern is not necessarily true for all races. Perhaps Dragonborn females are larger and stronger than men? What if Dwarven women are equally capable as their men? What about plant or fungal creatures that may be both sexes, or neither? This is an area that seems really interesting to explore, but is let down by a stubborn insistence on a certain socio-political perspective.

How would you go about approaching this task?

Stat modifiers of course.  Though, one nice thing about a points system like GURPS is that you can model characters however you want without having an actual mechanical distinction.  So you never have to say -2 Strength for females while it can be fully implemented in all the material.

How I approach it might vary by race. It's actually an opportunity to make the races feel more different.

I've always liked the way AD&D 1E differentiated human male and females. Not in any way that would really keep you from playing what you want to play.  Mostly just subtle nuances. The main mechanical restriction is females would have a lower max strength, which can be surpassed via magical means, whereas males, especially those with high Charisma, are targeted by certain creatures.

I've only ever seen this be an issue with male players wanting to play female characters. Maybe your experience is different than mine, but I've found that women don't fantasies about being giant and muscular. So I've never had pushback on a max limit on female strength.

However, when dealing with this mechanically, the best compromise is to use a Runequest-like Size characteristic (or simply treat starting strength scores as an inverse size value). Then use this size value to provide modifiers to things where being small would be advantageous such as sneaking around and hiding in small spaces. For example, if a character has a +1 bonus to Strength checks, they get a -1 penalty for Sneaking and a -1 penalty to Strength yields a +1 bonus to sneaking. 

[EDIT] Just to be clear, I use a generalized Size value mainly to balance the various races with each other. A huge, hulking Ogre character has different advantages and disadvantages than a small Pixie character. So adding this as a modifier for smaller humans requires no extra effort. (Ogres are size 2, humans vary from 1 to -1, elves are -1, hobbits -2 and pixies -4)

Quote from: Dinopaw on March 17, 2023, 11:36:08 AMAssume that your goal is to represent sex differences in D&D mechanics.

I would not.

I have players roll 3d6 in order. The randomness of the dice presents a greater variation than that seen between the genders. Running a small gym, I see a huge variation in people's starting abilities, and in general people are all weaker than the average AD&D1e character. For example, in that system you can press 10lbs overhead for each point of Strength up to 18. The average of 3d6 is 10.5, suggesting a 105lb press. In almost 14 years working as a trainer I have worked closely with well over 150 people, and less closely with 300 or so more, and I have never met a previously untrained person who could press 105lb overhead. Not once.

The 30-60lb level is more common. Three months of training essentially doubles this, another two years might double it again - if they're dedicated. Few are. So most end up with 60-120lb, and a few more driven individuals up to 180lb. But they start with 30-60lb.

I am sure people will now reply telling me that they totally benched 315lbs in high school with no training at all, and can still do it now at 50 years old. I take this with the same seriousness I do of anything else I read from anonymous posters online: it's bullshit.

AD&D1e and its later, inferior variations do not in any way, shape or form simulate reality, whether gender differences or anything else. If you want realism you would not only have gender differences, you would also remove all the magic and monsters, introduce slow healing with the possibility of infection and long-term disability, and so on. It's intriguing to me that so many male nerds are completely indifferent to realism except in this one tiny thing. Well, you have to be able to feel superior to someone about something or other, I suppose.

80% of male drivers think they have better than average driving skills. One of the reasons my gym is less popular than globogyms is that people who come along cannot deceive themselves that they "actually pretty fit and strong, really." When you walk in and see a 70yo woman deadlift 100kg, you can't bullshit yourself anymore.

3d6 in order.

As for races: the differences in races are there as an exercise in game balance: you get extra of stat X, but you're limited in level to Y, that sort of thing. Consider it as an indirect point-buy.

I don't own the product (shame on me!), but might tinkering with RPGpundit's Social Encounters product (if the mods aren't already in there) be an option?

Male humans are more likely, for example, to be able to pull off "intimidation" type interactions, while the typical woman won't.

When backing it up with physical force isn't an option, talking one's way out of trouble might work better for women.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 18, 2023, 09:30:03 PM

Quote from: Dinopaw on March 17, 2023, 11:36:08 AMAssume that your goal is to represent sex differences in D&D mechanics.

I would not.

I have players roll 3d6 in order. The randomness of the dice presents a greater variation than that seen between the genders. Running a small gym, I see a huge variation in people's starting abilities, and in general people are all weaker than the average AD&D1e character. For example, in that system you can press 10lbs overhead for each point of Strength up to 18. The average of 3d6 is 10.5, suggesting a 105lb press. In almost 14 years working as a trainer I have worked closely with well over 150 people, and less closely with 300 or so more, and I have never met a previously untrained person who could press 105lb overhead. Not once.

The 30-60lb level is more common. Three months of training essentially doubles this, another two years might double it again - if they're dedicated. Few are. So most end up with 60-120lb, and a few more driven individuals up to 180lb. But they start with 30-60lb.

I am sure people will now reply telling me that they totally benched 315lbs in high school with no training at all, and can still do it now at 50 years old. I take this with the same seriousness I do of anything else I read from anonymous posters online: it's bullshit.

Spot on. I've trained a half dozen people, so I don't come anywhere near your experience, but everything you said rings true. I've heard so many people tell me they could do x lift at x pounds back in high school. You have them do the lift at bar weight only and their form is not there and probably never was. There's way too much bullshit online and offline when it comes to lifting. Working out is the one community that out bullshits the rpg community.

AD&D Strength was calculated by guys who never lifted anything. I mean, they have 25# 2 handed swords, so...take it all with a barrel of salt.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 18, 2023, 09:30:03 PM

Quote from: Dinopaw on March 17, 2023, 11:36:08 AMAssume that your goal is to represent sex differences in D&D mechanics.

I would not.

I have players roll 3d6 in order. The randomness of the dice presents a greater variation than that seen between the genders. Running a small gym, I see a huge variation in people's starting abilities, and in general people are all weaker than the average AD&D1e character. For example, in that system you can press 10lbs overhead for each point of Strength up to 18. The average of 3d6 is 10.5, suggesting a 105lb press. In almost 14 years working as a trainer I have worked closely with well over 150 people, and less closely with 300 or so more, and I have never met a previously untrained person who could press 105lb overhead. Not once.

The 30-60lb level is more common. Three months of training essentially doubles this, another two years might double it again - if they're dedicated. Few are. So most end up with 60-120lb, and a few more driven individuals up to 180lb. But they start with 30-60lb.

I am sure people will now reply telling me that they totally benched 315lbs in high school with no training at all, and can still do it now at 50 years old. I take this with the same seriousness I do of anything else I read from anonymous posters online: it's bullshit.

AD&D1e and its later, inferior variations do not in any way, shape or form simulate reality, whether gender differences or anything else. If you want realism you would not only have gender differences, you would also remove all the magic and monsters, introduce slow healing with the possibility of infection and long-term disability, and so on. It's intriguing to me that so many male nerds are completely indifferent to realism except in this one tiny thing. Well, you have to be able to feel superior to someone about something or other, I suppose.

80% of male drivers think they have better than average driving skills. One of the reasons my gym is less popular than globogyms is that people who come along cannot deceive themselves that they "actually pretty fit and strong, really." When you walk in and see a 70yo woman deadlift 100kg, you can't bullshit yourself anymore.

3d6 in order.

As for races: the differences in races are there as an exercise in game balance: you get extra of stat X, but you're limited in level to Y, that sort of thing. Consider it as an indirect point-buy.

Nice rant.  Of course, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.  And it's factually incorrect.  The dice roll is not more variable than the difference between the sexes.  The strongest women (a woman in the top 10%) lift about the same as a well-trained high school athlete.  People just don't realize the dramatic difference in strength capabilities.  Testosterone is a hell of a drug...

Regarding gender differences, apart from size/strength/bone and muscle mass derived mostly from testosterone and HGH, I vaguely remember there
being some scientific studies in the past where the results were in the line of biological women having on average "higher intelligence" than males in general. Males in turn were said to have more representation in both polar ends, low or high and less in the middle or upper middle level. Meaning, majority of the most intelligent and most idiotic humans are of male gender. Reasoning for this was that females especially in pre-modern times could to rely less on size and strength and had to come up with ways to survive through social intellect, which some could call calculative manipulation of the male species through softer means

Of course, this is a raw generalization and there are many types of intelligence. Though most can´t argue that women in general are famous for their social intellect. Women in general are more interested in people and men are more interested in things, this is likely caused by hormonal reasons where higher level of testosterone makes left brain hemisphere dominant and vice versa.

This can be seen in gender representation in technical fields like engineering where most people are male, regardless of specialization.
Little girls start honing their social skills early on in their play, roleplaying essentially weddings, family environments and princess plays.
Where boys in turn wrestle and fight and what not.

I have wondered for a long time, how is it that when I meet really dumb men, their women tend to be rather smart and I´v been able to have
deep conversations with them. I´v met very few dumb females though, I can only come up with maybe 1-3 or so, but I´v met very many really
dumb and really bright males in turn. 

Whether these should be represented in RPG´s is another matter entirely.

QuoteNice rant.  Of course, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.  And it's factually incorrect.  The dice roll is not more variable than the difference between the sexes.  The strongest women (a woman in the top 10%) lift about the same as a well-trained high school athlete.  People just don't realize the dramatic difference in strength capabilities.  Testosterone is a hell of a drug...

Indeed, YouTube is full of videos of males vs women in sports. Women and men competing in different leagues should say it all.

Quote from: Angry Goblin on March 19, 2023, 02:12:39 PM
Regarding gender differences, apart from size/strength/bone and muscle mass derived mostly from testosterone and HGH, I vaguely remember there
being some scientific studies in the past where the results were in the line of biological women having on average "higher intelligence" than males in general. Males in turn were said to have more representation in both polar ends, low or high and less in the middle or upper middle level. Meaning, majority of the most intelligent and most idiotic humans are of male gender. Reasoning for this was that females especially in pre-modern times could to rely less on size and strength and had to come up with ways to survive through social intellect, which some could call calculative manipulation of the male species through softer means

I see you've watched some Peterson videos. Yes, when talking about IQ, women are on average ever-so-slightly more intelligent (although I don't think the difference could be captured on a 3d6 roll) than men, but also have a smaller standard deviation (that one definitely can't be captured with a 3d6 roll). But women are also generally more conscientious (which is a Big Five personality trait, and definitely has no analogue in D&D) which causes them to be more successful in school and even work settings, and generally contribute nearly as much as raw intelligence to so-called "life success" — defined as getting a good job and doing well in it.

Physically, women are generally more resistant to pain and more agreeable, so perhaps if a GM wants to reduce the maximum strength for female characters, maybe he should reduce the charisma or constitution maxima of male characters to compensate. Not a bonus or a penalty; that would screw up the average. But saying "you have to play a girl to keep this 18 constitution" might not be entirely unreasonable.

In 3D6 stat games, I give players a +1/-1 modifiers to choose WTF they want to model.

I don't say "sex differences", but players could choose to do that.

Since we're talking mostly about fantasy or cinematic games, I truly couldn't care about real world characteristics. Players are coming to the table from lots of modern media which means "grrrl power" assumptions or other power fantasy literature, so I don't need additional drama.

Quote from: Jason Coplen on March 19, 2023, 10:26:19 AM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 18, 2023, 09:30:03 PM

Quote from: Dinopaw on March 17, 2023, 11:36:08 AMAssume that your goal is to represent sex differences in D&D mechanics.

I would not.

I have players roll 3d6 in order. The randomness of the dice presents a greater variation than that seen between the genders. Running a small gym, I see a huge variation in people's starting abilities, and in general people are all weaker than the average AD&D1e character. For example, in that system you can press 10lbs overhead for each point of Strength up to 18. The average of 3d6 is 10.5, suggesting a 105lb press. In almost 14 years working as a trainer I have worked closely with well over 150 people, and less closely with 300 or so more, and I have never met a previously untrained person who could press 105lb overhead. Not once.

The 30-60lb level is more common. Three months of training essentially doubles this, another two years might double it again - if they're dedicated. Few are. So most end up with 60-120lb, and a few more driven individuals up to 180lb. But they start with 30-60lb.

I am sure people will now reply telling me that they totally benched 315lbs in high school with no training at all, and can still do it now at 50 years old. I take this with the same seriousness I do of anything else I read from anonymous posters online: it's bullshit.

Spot on. I've trained a half dozen people, so I don't come anywhere near your experience, but everything you said rings true. I've heard so many people tell me they could do x lift at x pounds back in high school. You have them do the lift at bar weight only and their form is not there and probably never was. There's way too much bullshit online and offline when it comes to lifting. Working out is the one community that out bullshits the rpg community.

I suspect that most of those who did seriously lift in high school probably had enough interest in physical fitness that they don't need to hit a gym to get in shape; they just stayed at whatever level of shape the were comfortable with.

Being male made you more sensible to direct sexual traits. Being female made you more sensible to indirect sexual traits.
And that conclude the differences, if not that females ovulate and males not. Ah, and the penis is a thing too.

Males could have a genetical disposition toward muscle mass. They *could* have it, but is not a given male trait. I can't develop muscle mass not even in 100 years of benching. And still being male.
Females doesn't tend to be more judicious, or any judicious male will be a female. But some female  could develop an high judicious trait (that's different to say "all women are more judicious").

So, to me, you can introduce extremes. A male can develop STR above 20, and females WIS above 20. The other game factors left as they are.

Quote from: Angry Goblin on March 19, 2023, 02:12:39 PM
<snip>Males in turn were said to have more representation in both polar ends, low or high and less in the middle or upper middle level. Meaning, majority of the most intelligent and most idiotic humans are of male<snip>

It's called the Variability hypothesis.

It means men hold up (and down) the ends of the bell curve. A moron, or a genius, is more likely to be a man.
Women hold up the middle of bell curve. They can be morons or geniuses, but they're more likely to be in between.

When discussing this, you have to watch for words like average or mean. Because none of the above affects the average.

More details https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_intelligence#Variability

Here is a more detailed history, but it quickly gets bogged down in (unrelated) claims.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 18, 2023, 09:30:03 PM3d6 in order.

3d6 In Order could work IF you have a different modifier chart for the various choices.

For example, a man with an 18 Strength gets a +3 modifier, a woman with an 18 gets +2 as would a male elf. A hobbit man or a female Elf would get a +1 modifier. Etc