I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this question so if it belongs somewhere please feel free to move it along.

I'm ramping up production on a new RPG product (a modern fantasy PDF) and for my last project someone volunteer to do the design for free. I plan on taking a digital design class soon but until then I'd like to hire a pro (or semi-pro) to do work on my product and make it look really good.

I've never hired anyone in this sort of capacity before so I'm wondering what kind of price is usually charged for this kind of thing. I'm thinking of doing an IndieGoGo campaign for it but I'm not sure how much I actually want to list as my campaign goal.

Thoughts?

Quote from: candelaris;463532I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this question so if it belongs somewhere please feel free to move it along.

I'm ramping up production on a new RPG product (a modern fantasy PDF) and for my last project someone volunteer to do the design for free. I plan on taking a digital design class soon but until then I'd like to hire a pro (or semi-pro) to do work on my product and make it look really good.

I've never hired anyone in this sort of capacity before so I'm wondering what kind of price is usually charged for this kind of thing. I'm thinking of doing an IndieGoGo campaign for it but I'm not sure how much I actually want to list as my campaign goal.

Thoughts?

Layout is really important.  Hell, SenZar might even be playable if they had someone knowledgeable do the layout.  That said, find someone who bids a price you are comfortable paying, then get a portfolio of their other work and/or send them a page or three to layout and see if you like their vision.  Like editors, a good layout designer is worth their weight in gold.

I think with gaming, if you can, you are better off doing the layout work on your own (as it can get expensive to hire someone). The downside of this approach is things may not be as visually stellar to boot as you want, the upside is tremendous savings on cost (once you get past the initial cost of software) and you develop some serious layout skills (which can be valuable in the workforce)---and over time your layouts will get better and better.

If you can afford the layout, really want a dazzling design or if you really don't feel comfortable doing it on your own, you probably should expect to pay something on the order of 300-500 dollars (though its been a while since I've shopped around for layout people, so not 100% sure how accurate this number is).

However you can always try to trade services with someone. At one point we needed some more art (a lot of art) for a book, but we'd already depleted are budget. I found an artist willing to do the work in exchange for some copy. So we settled on an agreement that I would provide X amount of words if he would provide X amount of illustrations. It worked out really well.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;463602I think with gaming, if you can, you are better off doing the layout work on your own (as it can get expensive to hire someone). The downside of this approach is things may not be as visually stellar to boot as you want, the upside is tremendous savings on cost (once you get past the initial cost of software) and you develop some serious layout skills (which can be valuable in the workforce)---and over time your layouts will get better and better.

If you can afford the layout, really want a dazzling design or if you really don't feel comfortable doing it on your own, you probably should expect to pay something on the order of 300-500 dollars (though its been a while since I've shopped around for layout people, so not 100% sure how accurate this number is).

However you can always try to trade services with someone. At one point we needed some more art (a lot of art) for a book, but we'd already depleted are budget. I found an artist willing to do the work in exchange for some copy. So we settled on an agreement that I would provide X amount of words if he would provide X amount of illustrations. It worked out really well.

I kinda figured it'd be pricey. I'm doing an IndieGoGo thing pretty much for the express purpose of hiring a designer so I'm hoping I'll be able to generate the funds that way. If not then I'm gonna try to learn how to use Scribus and pray to the design gods.

Design and layout is part of what I do for a living. While I am not a designer per se, I lay out newspaper pages just about daily and my minor in college was in digital publishing.

I've worked in Quark and Adobe's InDesign. Of the two, InDesign is my preference, but both are extremely pricey. That being said, I have Scribus on my home computer to play with and do home projects on. (I design small 'player's handbooks' for campaigns from time to time. I also have designed DVD covers and inserts for home videos and as packages for gift cards, shit like that.)

I have come to enjoy working in Scribus more than the other two. It took a long time to both learn that program and stop trying to do Quark-like or InDesign-like things in. I heartily recommend Scribus.

As far as designing your layout, I don't see any reason why you couldn't do it yourself even without training. The biggest thing is the art you have and matching your design vision to that (or vice versa).

Look around at books you like and crib their concepts and ideas (don't steal directly, as even design can be plagiarized). Don't limit your search to just RPG books either. A lot of magazines have very talented designers working for them and doing some incredible stuff. I have taken layouts from Sporting News before and recrafted them to my uses.

Another thing to consider is prepress and the knowledge you'll need on that end. Most places you print will have someone who can help with it, but some knowledge on your side can help you prepare and save you some time. Scribus has a pretty smart prepress checker, but even still.

Scribus can handle pretty much whatever your imagination throws at it, I think. If you like, I can send you an example of the aforementioned handbooks I threw together for my players, just to give you an idea of what kind of end product you put together with some free weekends and some patience (and decent art).

Quote from: Kaz;463612Design and layout is part of what I do for a living. While I am not a designer per se, I lay out newspaper pages just about daily and my minor in college was in digital publishing.

I've worked in Quark and Adobe's InDesign. Of the two, InDesign is my preference, but both are extremely pricey. That being said, I have Scribus on my home computer to play with and do home projects on. (I design small 'player's handbooks' for campaigns from time to time. I also have designed DVD covers and inserts for home videos and as packages for gift cards, shit like that.)

I have come to enjoy working in Scribus more than the other two. It took a long time to both learn that program and stop trying to do Quark-like or InDesign-like things in. I heartily recommend Scribus.

As far as designing your layout, I don't see any reason why you couldn't do it yourself even without training. The biggest thing is the art you have and matching your design vision to that (or vice versa).

Look around at books you like and crib their concepts and ideas (don't steal directly, as even design can be plagiarized). Don't limit your search to just RPG books either. A lot of magazines have very talented designers working for them and doing some incredible stuff. I have taken layouts from Sporting News before and recrafted them to my uses.

Another thing to consider is prepress and the knowledge you'll need on that end. Most places you print will have someone who can help with it, but some knowledge on your side can help you prepare and save you some time. Scribus has a pretty smart prepress checker, but even still.

Scribus can handle pretty much whatever your imagination throws at it, I think. If you like, I can send you an example of the aforementioned handbooks I threw together for my players, just to give you an idea of what kind of end product you put together with some free weekends and some patience (and decent art).

Kaz makes a lot of sense. I knew nothing about layout work, and decided to do our layouts in order to save money. It really wasn't that hard to do once you took the time to watch some online tutorials and read the manual. Incidentally if you do by quark or indesign, I strongly recommend buying the manuals (I think I paid like 60 bucks for the indesign manual). Don't know much about scribus, but if Kaz does this kind of stuff for a living and prefers it, that probably says something. Kaz is there an online or hard copy manual for scribus?

I would also reinforce what he said about pre-press. Know in advance what your printer requires in terms of files, colors, DPI, ink density, etc. Most of our issues have been related to ink density. But we also had an unusual problem with a pantone color on one of our covers that came out fuzzy and yellow (where it was supposed to be solid and blue). All this stuff can come back to bite you later on. The more you know about the printing process, the easier it is to do layout. Proofs also help.

Quote from: candelaris;463604I kinda figured it'd be pricey. I'm doing an IndieGoGo thing pretty much for the express purpose of hiring a designer so I'm hoping I'll be able to generate the funds that way. If not then I'm gonna try to learn how to use Scribus and pray to the design gods.

I hope you gather the funds you need. Have you decided how you are going to handle art, editing, etc?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;463613Kaz is there an online or hard copy manual for scribus?

There's this: Scribus Wiki

There are some things InDesign and Quark can do better. If they were all the same price (free!) I'd still take InDesign since I cut my teeth on it. But bang for your buck, you can not top Scribus.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;463614I hope you gather the funds you need. Have you decided how you are going to handle art, editing, etc?

Once I finish with the writing and play testing I'll probably going to go through the various online communities I post at and see if I can find an artist or artists who have a style I think would fit and see what their prices are.

Depending on how that plays out I'll where I can go from there. My biggest concern is getting a good layout and design done to the point where it looks decent even without a large amount of art. The last project I worked on ended up looking nicer than I could have managed but I honestly wouldn't have paid for it based on the design alone (hence why I'm giving it away). I really want to avoid having reservations about design work and be able to focus on the writing, advertising, etc.

Edit: Thanks for the link Kaz. I'm still finishing up the writing part but I'll hopefully be able to review Scribus and get an idea what I can do, even if it's just a rough draft.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;463613I would also reinforce what he said about pre-press. Know in advance what your printer requires in terms of files, colors, DPI, ink density, etc. Most of our issues have been related to ink density. But we also had an unusual problem with a pantone color on one of our covers that came out fuzzy and yellow (where it was supposed to be solid and blue). All this stuff can come back to bite you later on. The more you know about the printing process, the easier it is to do layout. Proofs also help.

We have a press in our building. We talk to the pressmen every night, we give them proofs, we do things exactly to the letter...

And it still doesn't come out right 90 percent of the time. I shit you not.

Granted, I'm talking about an old-ass press, using cheap-ass newspaper print, and short deadlines, but still, there's all kinds of things that can go wrong. I'd, at the very least, ask around about presses until you find one you think will do the best work for the best price.

Quote from: Kaz;463624We have a press in our building. We talk to the pressmen every night, we give them proofs, we do things exactly to the letter...

And it still doesn't come out right 90 percent of the time. I shit you not.

Granted, I'm talking about an old-ass press, using cheap-ass newspaper print, and short deadlines, but still, there's all kinds of things that can go wrong. I'd, at the very least, ask around about presses until you find one you think will do the best work for the best price.

ouch.

In our case the pantone was something that technically wasn't in any of the requirements requested by the printer, but just produced an unexpected result.

Quote from: Kaz;463620There's this: Scribus Wiki

There are some things InDesign and Quark can do better. If they were all the same price (free!) I'd still take InDesign since I cut my teeth on it. But bang for your buck, you can not top Scribus.

So for somebody, like me, who knows Pagemaker what about be the big differences with Scribus?

I have never used PageMaker.

Most of the major differences against programs I have used, are in tools and how things are placed within the program. So, mostly stuff you'd just have to acclimate to. Some things are easier, some harder. Some stuff you can easily do in Quark or InDesign, I had to do some research on how to pull off in Scribus.

One of the biggest differences is editing copy. Scribus opens a second window with a light text editor. Here you can apply your copy styles and such. You can still edit copy from the original window, but not as easily as you can in the other programs.

It's not terribly flexible or intuitive, especially if you have experience in other design programs, but at the price... it's at least worth a look and a couple weeks of playing with to see if it's for you.