How is DitV not an RPG?

Levi Kornelsen · December 15, 2006, 08:07:23 PM

Quote from: James J SkachIs there anything in Dogs that requires the GM answer this way, or is this just Mr. Baker's style?

The bit in GMing entitled "Don't Play God".

James J Skach · December 15, 2006, 08:11:43 PM

Quote from: Levi KornelsenThe bit in GMing entitled "Don't Play God".

Is that the entirety of it? Because, boy, could that be taken any number of ways.

I mean, providing a cryptic, or even clear, answer to the question of "what does my god want me to do," IMHO, does not mean "playing God." If anything, the designer of the world in which the game is being played is "playing God" as much as the GM, at that point.

Levi Kornelsen · December 15, 2006, 08:19:19 PM

Quote from: James J SkachIs that the entirety of it?

Nope; that's just the title of the bit.

Basically, it's "Do not have prepared or concieved 'right' answers to moral questions. That's not your job; it's the players job. If you have prepared right answers, then you're not just posing a moral question, you're also answering it, which is no damn good."

It's a bit longer, but that's the basics.

Sethwick · December 15, 2006, 08:23:53 PM

Quote from: James J SkachIs that the entirety of it? Because, boy, could that be taken any number of ways.

I mean, providing a cryptic, or even clear, answer to the question of "what does my god want me to do," IMHO, does not mean "playing God." If anything, the designer of the world in which the game is being played is "playing God" as much as the GM, at that point.

No, it's a bit more specific than that. It means don't play the in game God. The King of Life. You are not Him. You didn't write his scriptures. It is the players job to decide what the King of Life wants and what He believes. Whatever their characters do, in a sense, defines that. A Dog can do nothing that is not the will of the King of Life. What it amounts to is that, in game, no one has any real authority judge the PC but himself (although some would certainly try). Out of game, the GM does not judge the players or their characters. He ain't god.

James J Skach · December 15, 2006, 08:34:59 PM

So, there is possibly the first thing I've seen in DitV (not having bought it) that really is different. It's actually a very neat device to instantiate player empowerment. Nicely done.

Erik Boielle · December 15, 2006, 09:50:06 PM

Quote from: SethwickA Dog can do nothing that is not the will of the King of Life.

Ah, I think they can, but the only people who will know it are the Dog and his player.

So you can call down the wrath of a vengeful god on your renegade Dog, should you so wish (with, like, Thunderbolts and Avenging Angels, ifn you want).

And everyone else can wind you up talking about how Whatever happens was gods will anyway.

But you'll still know, deep down, if your guy really betrayed him.

Erik Boielle · December 15, 2006, 10:19:58 PM

Incidentally, it is my experience that having lots of player input often fails miserably - if you want to get deep in to this you either need to accept that sometimes the story is gonna go nowhere, or else have the GM have some fallback material he can bring in when things stop.

That and serve alcohol. Lots of alcohol.

Maybe in Dogs you shouldn't be afraid to kill the town and go on to the next one. And have some thoughts about where the traps might go.

arminius · December 16, 2006, 01:16:58 AM

I think it's funny & cool that Jim & Erik are so upbeat about exactly the thing that annoys me the most about DitV.

Kyle Aaron · December 16, 2006, 02:53:59 AM

Quote from: James J SkachSo, there is possibly the first thing I've seen in DitV (not having bought it) that really is different. It's actually a very neat device to instantiate player empowerment. Nicely done.

Or a device to help a lazy GM.

"I hit for 6 hit points of damage. Is he dead yet?"
"It's up to you. Is he? The result... so... what is it?"

"Okay so we go into the town. What shops are there?"
"If you want there to be shops, there are shops. There's a shop... so... what is it?"

"I pray for guidance from my god."
"Okay, I give. You win. You now know exactly what God wants you to do. So ... what is it?"

"Player empowerment" can be, though is not always, another way of saying, "lazy GM."

Levi Kornelsen · December 16, 2006, 03:20:39 AM

Quote from: JimBobOz"Player empowerment" can be, though is not always, another way of saying, "lazy GM."

Can be, sure.

I'm lazy about some stuff, and hyper-keen on other stuff. The group works with me, and it all works.

So, whatever.

droog · December 16, 2006, 03:23:20 AM

Quote from: Elliot WilenI think it's funny & cool that Jim & Erik are so upbeat about exactly the thing that annoys me the most about DitV.

Yes, and that Erik is such a fan.

mythusmage · December 16, 2006, 04:12:07 AM

DitV is about fanaticism. It's about the power of absolute assurance, when one will not entertain doubt or uncertainty. Whatever you do, however you carry out the mission, that is how God wants it done. No hesitation, no uncertainty, just do it. Satan's crime was not that he rebelled against God, but that he doubted God.

droog · December 16, 2006, 05:39:06 AM

Quote from: mythusmageDitV is about fanaticism. It's about the power of absolute assurance, when one will not entertain doubt or uncertainty. Whatever you do, however you carry out the mission, that is how God wants it done. No hesitation, no uncertainty, just do it. Satan's crime was not that he rebelled against God, but that he doubted God.

The hesitation and uncertainty comes before you do what you do, and while you do what you do. After it's done, it's done, however it's done.

The best play in Dogs is in the uncertainty. And you must decide. No gods, cults, clans or bosses to hold your hand and tell you what to do. Just you and a gun. Pure roleplaying.

Erik Boielle · December 16, 2006, 08:01:51 AM

Quote from: droogYes, and that Erik is such a fan.

Dude!

I'm an ardent internet flamewarrior, so issues of Truth and interpretation of Canon and Intent are dear to my heart. I went to church for the first eighteen years of my life and my Mum has a vast collection off books on subjects like 'Feminist Theology' and 'Enviromental Theology' and the similarity between this vast body of work and internet arguments about the meaning of Star Wars entertains, appalls and scare me all at the same time. I've got an extensive collection of hang ups about the importance of pro-activity and chosing your own path. And I've got a fetish for precussion revolvers.

I'm so there.

mythusmage · December 16, 2006, 09:51:54 AM

Quote from: droogThe hesitation and uncertainty comes before you do what you do, and while you do what you do. After it's done, it's done, however it's done.

The best play in Dogs is in the uncertainty. And you must decide. No gods, cults, clans or bosses to hold your hand and tell you what to do. Just you and a gun. Pure roleplaying.

That's the thing, for the true believer there is no doubt or hesitation. "Kill them all, for God will know his own."