Jason Morningstar says:-

QuoteI recently realized that I have no control over how people use and play my games, and that this isn't actually problematic. It sounds funny in the clear light of reason but I really needed to internalize this and stop worrying about it.

Ben Lehman says

QuoteThe thing about all these question type things is that my response is "huh, but I'll only be able to answer that when the game is done." (On reflection, the one game I ever could complete the power 19 about was a better thought-experiment than actual game ... huh.)

And not, like "done in my head." Like "done, playtested, revised, playtested more, about twenty times, printed, demoed at gencon, run for a thirty groups at cons and such, played with my good friends at home, shown to my mother and brother, discussed on the Forge for a year" done.

Seriously, people. You are thinking about the implications and social structures and design goals and creative agenda and such in your games while you design them? It's not that I don't believe you can, or that I don't believe that you do, it's just like looking at aliens reproduce with, I dunno, mechanical spores or something.

Quote from: flyingmiceWhat do you mean "support," Tony?

What do I mean?  I mean it makes it easy to Squid.  You don't have to kit-bash rules for sucker-damage, or fudge the character creation rules that make builds of more than four arms prohibitively costly.  You don't have to consistently ignore the "aircraft piloting skills" section.  You just play the game, using the rules, and aiming for Squid, and the rules help you reach Squid.

Often, to my mind, support goes along with reward mechanics:  Playing Squid is the way to win the game, for some clear-cut measure of winning.

Like, for instance, there's the fallout rules in DitV:  As folks have pointed out, the smart way to game those rules is to have lots of conflicts where you take lots and lots of fallout at the level of talking and physical confrontation.

If you do that, you will find that you are having lots of conversations where both sides are scoring some really telling verbal points on each other, but neither side is willing to give up.  You're going to end up with situations where nobody is clearly right, and nobody is clearly wrong ... where each side has a strong, valid argument.  And you want the other guy to have a strong, valid argument, you want to explicitly and clearly take the hits from that, because that's where you get the fallout.

So I look at Dogs and I say "That game supports a strategy of letting other people get their licks in."  I can see, right there in the rules, that it's a good strategy, and that I'm going to benefit by pursuing it.  Since, as it turns out, that makes a world of sense with the types of stories that the game claims it's for telling, I'm pretty happy with that.

Does that make sense?  I know it's a bit wishy-washy, but I protest once more:  Not an expert!

Give an example of a non-Forge game that is incoherent.  Pick something fairly mainstream and well known.  I'm suggesting that whatever you pick, "incoherent" won't be the right term to describe that game and any perceived problems with it.  

"Incoherent" means it doesn't make any bloody sense.

Whatever game you suggest, I doubt it's actually "incoherent".

So the Forge concept might be ok -- some games don't mechanically support the thing they're supposed to be about -- but using the word "incoherent" is a poor choice.  As usual.

Quote from: TonyLBSince, as it turns out, that makes a world of sense with the types of stories that the game claims it's for telling

Where does it claim what sorts of stories its for telling?

Quote from: Erik BoielleWhere does it claim what sorts of stories its for telling?

Well, on the back of my book (which is first edition, so YMMV) it says

QuoteYou stand between God's law and the best intentions of the weak.

You stand between God's people and their own demons.

Sometimes it's better for one to die than for many to suffer.  Sometimes, Dog, sometimes you have to cut off the arm to save the life.

Does the sinner deserve mercy?  Do the wicked deserve judgment?

They're in your hands.

That conveys (to me) the image of a game in which people wrestle with moral issues for which there are no easy answers.  Again, YMMV.

Quote from: Stuart"Incoherent" means it doesn't make any bloody sense.

Uh ... well, no.  "Nonsensical" means it doesn't make any sense.

Dictionary.com gives me the following for Incoherent:

Quote1. without logical or meaningful connection; disjointed; rambling: an incoherent sentence.  
2. characterized by such thought or language, as a person: incoherent with rage.  
3. not coherent or cohering: an incoherent mixture.  
4. lacking physical cohesion; loose: incoherent dust.  
5. lacking unity or harmony of elements: an incoherent public.  
6. lacking congruity of parts; uncoordinated.  
7. different or incompatible by nature, as things.  
8. Physics. (of a wave) having a low degree of coherence. Compare coherent (def. 4).

At least five of those definitions (1, 2, 3, 5, 6) seem, to me, to make perfect sense of a game where the description of the game is not meaningfully connected to the actual experience that the game supports.

I totally agree with you that the connotations of the word "incoherent" cover a much broader gamut than this.  It's a very poorly chosen word to communicate to people who are going to use it loosely.  But that doesn't seem (to me) to be because Ron wasn't paying attention to the formal definition of the word.  Do you disagree?

Quote from: TonyLBAgain, YMMV.

Yeah - this is key, since the description also fits with the

Quote"I sweep my coat around and the bullets spark off it, like pang pang pang! I'm mighty with the power of righteousness!" Then you raise with something like this: "I Call you by your Secret Name and command you to drop the gun!"

Its flavour text old son. The closest the text comes to saying what the game about is that over time the standpoints of the characters will become clear, and that its fun to watch people take positions on things. It may be about old testament retribution, or weedy librul modern man brings light to the uneducated old timers or whatever, or mormon ass kicking.

But what its about will only become clear when it is played. As with any game.

So DitV is a great game. But is it great because, or in spite of, the forge?

Calling a game "incoherent" to most people means this:
1. without logical or meaningful connection; disjointed; rambling: an incoherent sentence.

As in...

QuoteLOU: Here's the new copy game you wanted.

PETERMAN: Ah, yes. Well this certainly looks like a lot of words. In record time. I'm very impressed ... with both of you.

ELAINE: Thank you. ha ha

PETERMAN: Unfortunately, I am also disgusted. This is incoherent dribble! This is a total redo and I'm assuming I need it right away.

ELAINE: Well, I guess we'll just Hey, just gimme that.

Is Peterman saying the copy game is is not meaningfully connected to the actual experience that it supports.  Or is he saying that it doesn't making any bloody sense?

Whether Ron doesn't speak very well and didn't understand what the word means to most people, or whether he does understand, and has setup his Jargon so that he can politely say he's disgusted by other games and that they're incoherent drivel -- I can only speculate.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSo DitV is a great game. But is it great because, or in spite of, the forge?

You could ask VB.

I think one of the great things about DitV – maybe the greatest thing – is that it can take both Tony and Erik on.

Quote from: droogYou could ask VB.

Nah - he probably doesn't understand his own design techniques.

:-)

QuoteI think one of the great things about DitV – maybe the greatest thing – is that it can take both Tony and Erik on.

Yeah. For a True classic, like, er, Star Wars*, you want to be all things to all men (is it nazi bashing in space? or samurai in space? or epic mythslinging? or low down and dirty smuggling? Surprise! Its all of the above, and more!).

Not that possibly you need that kind of flexibility, and you probably can't set out to do it, but Vampire and Dogs have it in spades.

*Works for shakespeare to mind.

Quote from: SethwickWow... that's some opinion you got there... I've never heard anyone state quite so clearly their objection to RPGs having serious themes. It's just like... Wow.

So you don't watch movies what are depressing? Don't read books that leave you feeling down?

Unless you're 16 and writing bad poetry, "depressing" does not equal "serious", much less "deep" or "good".

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditUnless you're 16 and writing bad poetry, "depressing" does not equal "serious", much less "deep" or "good".

Yes, this is an important point for angsty writers and designers to consider.

I don't know where DitV falls in this regard.

DitV is as depressing as you want to make it.

It's about freakin' mormons in rainbow coats. Not the biggest goth appeal, though the subject is way too dark for me. I'd rather play Kult...

Quote from: Sosthenesthough the subject is way too dark for me.

But it doesn't have to be dark! You don't Have to enforce the religion as is! You are explicitly given free rein to sort out problems! If you want to declare that homosexuality is a valid life choice you can! You can bring enlightenment to the faith with your words, or your oversized cap and ball revolver whatever is your whim! The Faith is just there to create conflict! How you sort it out is left to the players!