When playing a role-playing game, finding ways to break game balance IS how you win the game.

I am in the middle of putting my RPG through its playtesting paces, outside read throughs and my own editing.   Game Balance has been a BIG issue across the board.  Here's what I found:  Nobody can agree on what game balance means.  Thus, as the author, I have to define it for myself and make sure the game fits my personal description.

My personal definition is:

1) All character types must excel in their own niche.   Each must have their own schtick that sets them apart as desirable to play.  

2) All stat / skill / feat / talent / item choices must be worthwhile.   None can be clearly superior nor inferior when compared to each other.   I like to create talents that are either good for general use or great for limited use.  AKA, you could get +1 Initiative talent or the +3 Initiative Only at Night talent.

3) Some choices will be superior for one-shots versus campaign play.   The focus of the particular campaign will also make some choices superior.  Accept this and keep moving.

Quote from: howandwhy99;254157When playing a role-playing game, finding ways to break game balance IS how you win the game.

It's a Pyrrhic win at best.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;254173It's a Pyrrhic win at best.

Regards,
David R

Only in a rule-playing game.  In an RPG it's all about getting the upper hand.  Fighting evenly matched battles is a fool's game.

Quote from: howandwhy99;254175Only in a rule-playing game.  In an RPG it's all about getting the upper hand.  Fighting evenly matched battles is a fool's game.

I don't think RPGs are all about getting the upper hand.

Regards,
David R

I acheive game balance by taking all of my books out of my bookcase and stacking them, one on top of the other.

You'd think game balance is easy until you get to those weird Star Wars Saga sized books or AFMBE. Then game balancing becomes difficult because they are not the same 8 1/2" by 11" size of most gamebooks.

I don't think it's possible to balance all my games.

Big ones on the bottom, small ones on top, silly. If they're wider than long, turn them 90 degrees.

Its certainly possible to create "game balance" (ie. a game where no one character is any more powerful than any other, and where the opposition in the game is never more than the pcs can handle), but its pretty fucking pointless to do that.

What is really important is to create a variety of particular niches, that each player can fill.  Not to make one character equally powerful to another, but to have each character have things they can do, where they shine and others don't.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;254493Its certainly possible to create "game balance" (ie. a game where no one character is any more powerful than any other, and where the opposition in the game is never more than the pcs can handle), but its pretty fucking pointless to do that.

What is really important is to create a variety of particular niches, that each player can fill.  Not to make one character equally powerful to another, but to have each character have things they can do, where they shine and others don't.

RPGPundit

I do not think niches are game balance. It would seem the opposite of game balance. However, I am not a big fan of niches in my games.

Bill

@HinterWelt: Can you explain that thought? Thanks.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;254513@HinterWelt: Can you explain that thought? Thanks.

I will try. As we have seen though, I may be a bit confused on what precisely game balance is.

To me, if you create niches (noticeable and measurable ones) you favor individual classes within those niches. Right? I think most everyone will agree that is niche protection. Well, by doing so you begin a process that becomes very difficult (IMO, impossible) to maintain a balance. Some niches will play to different play styles as overly advantageous. So, your group likes a lot of combat and facing the big bad head on? The thief is screwed. He might be great as a thief but the thief skills never get used.

Now, the solution, IMO again, is customizable niches. So, you have some thieving going on? Well, now you can make a thief with fighter skills and some magic. Suddenly, niches are less pronounced and more importantly, the depth is customizable. Many play styles can be served.

Of course, all just my opinion and I am not a fan of niches anyway so, yeah, take that for what it is worth.

Bill

Ah, ok, thanks.

My game is point-buy, so no worry about being shoved into a corner.

Quote from: HinterWelt;254527I will try. As we have seen though, I may be a bit confused on what precisely game balance is.

To me, if you create niches (noticeable and measurable ones) you favor individual classes within those niches. Right? I think most everyone will agree that is niche protection. Well, by doing so you begin a process that becomes very difficult (IMO, impossible) to maintain a balance. Some niches will play to different play styles as overly advantageous. So, your group likes a lot of combat and facing the big bad head on? The thief is screwed. He might be great as a thief but the thief skills never get used.

Now, the solution, IMO again, is customizable niches. So, you have some thieving going on? Well, now you can make a thief with fighter skills and some magic. Suddenly, niches are less pronounced and more importantly, the depth is customizable. Many play styles can be served.

No, the answer would be not to have thieves at all in your particular campaign.

This is the problem people always have with RIFTS.  "It isn't balanced!! How could you have a Rogue Scholar and a Dragon in the same game??"

Well, The point is pretty obvious that you aren't usually meant to have both.  There will be some campaigns geared toward the combat-heavy monsters, and others geared toward a more gritty urban game or whatever.

That said, its good if a niche is customizable anyways; not to try to maintain some kind of all-around playability but because the best possible design for an RPG is one where players are given archetypal classes but the rules allow them to fiddle with them greatly to personalize them.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;255153No, the answer would be not to have thieves at all in your particular campaign.

The point addressed was with the assumption you wanted niches. Personally, I would flatten niches to the point of them disappearing but that has little to do with game balance and more to do with preference.

Bill

Hi!
  I think it can be done.
  The trick is to look at the games main play, and make sure that accomplishing that does not have one optimal path.
  Whether you have niches or not, make sure that each niche does not have one optimal path.
  Does that make sense?
  Let me know if you need any details or whatever.
  Either way, good luck with your game.