So, based on a comment that Butcher made over on the main forum, we had some PM exchange around houserules for Palladium.  He thought it might make for an interesting public thread, so here it is.

Quote from: Panzerkraken

Quote from: The Butcher;656497Palladium is decent, but should be even better as soon as I figure how to tone down the multiple-attacks-per-round madness, and a better rule for full-auto gunfire.

The way we ran gunfire for more realism is:

Short Burst (3 or 5 rounds) x2 damage 1 attack
Long Burst (10 rounds) x5 damage 1 attack
Full Burst (20 rounds) x10 damage 2 attacks

Long Burst Spray (10 rounds) 1d4 targets x1 damage 1 attack
Full Burst Spray (20 rounds) 1d8 targets x1 damage 2 attacks
OR
Full Burst Spray (20 rounds) 1d4 targets x2 damage 2 attacks

As for multiple attacks... it's easier to just not give them out.  We ditched the 'everyone has 2 attacks in addition to their hth' comment and went with 1 attack or whatever you got from 1st level in HtH, then separated what you got in mecha from the overall hth; specifically you got your base for your hth then progressed per your mecha combat skill's level advancement, not adding in extra attacks from your hand to hand skill.  It cuts the numbers down and keeps the mecha from being overpowering compared to borgs.

We also ditched boxing and added in a similar skill called 'Combat Experience', which had a lower skill cost as you increased in level or based on OCC; it was 3 'Other' skills at 1st level, 2 at 3rd, 1 at 6th, and free at 9th, but cost one skill less for Men of Arms or Borg OCC's.  Pretty much the same bonuses (I think we got rid of the KO rule, but I don't have any reference atm)

Quote from: The Butcher

Quote from: PanzerkrakenThe way we ran gunfire for more realism is:

/snip

Those look good.

Quote from: PanzerkrakenAs for multiple attacks... it's easier to just not give them out.  We ditched the 'everyone has 2 attacks in addition to their hth' comment and went with 1 attack or whatever you got from 1st level in HtH, then separated what you got in mecha from the overall hth; specifically you got your base for your hth then progressed per your mecha combat skill's level advancement, not adding in extra attacks from your hand to hand skill.  It cuts the numbers down and keeps the mecha from being overpowering compared to borgs.

We also ditched boxing and added in a similar skill called 'Combat Experience',
/snip

But that's still giving out multiple attacks per round. I was thinking of doing away with them altogether (everyone gets 1 attack per round) and substituting bonus attacks for initiative bonuses or something, in order to make combat more dynamic, and play to Palladium's strength which is the blow-by-blow decision-making and dice-rolling.

Boxing is an easier fix: I'd be happy with just doing away with the extra melee attack.

I still think your post was worth a derail. I'm always happy when a thread gets derailed towards something that I can use at the game table.

Quote from: Panzerkraken

Quote from: The ButcherBut that's still giving out multiple attacks per round. I was thinking of doing away with them altogether
/snip

One way it was easier for me to deal with it was how we processed the attacks; since everyone takes their first attack, moves on to their second attack, each attack pass is sort of like a mini-round unto itself.  If you feel like doing that, then do exactly what you said, but drop the time in the round down to like 3 seconds or so, and then just run it that way.  Hell, if someone had brought it up with me I would've used that years ago.  And the init bonus for extra attacks sounds like a fine way to show combat experience as the characters level, sort of in the same way Solo's do in CP2020; ... in fact, I'd say add that bonus to their perception for combat purposes(idk if you use them, we added an entire stat for it) and you have a nice, handy system.

Hell, that's WAY easier than some of the gymnastics we did with ballistic and energy weapons around the MDC world.

Quote from: The Butcher

Quote from: PanzerkrakenOne way it was easier for me to deal with it was how we processed the attacks; since everyone takes their first attack, moves on to their second attack, each attack pass is sort of like a mini-round unto itself.  

It's aneat idea, but the problem is when one contender has 2 attacks per round, and the other 5; shouldn't the faster (5 attacks) attacker have the edge here? I don't know, honest question.

Quote from: PanzerkrakenHell, that's WAY easier than some of the gymnastics we did with ballistic and energy weapons around the MDC world.

You should start a thread on Palladium houseruling. This is a great discussion, and you have good ideas deserving of public exposition.

Quote from: Panzerkraken

Quote from: The ButcherIt's aneat idea, but the problem is when one contender has 2 attacks per round, and the other 5; shouldn't the faster (5 attacks) attacker have the edge here? I don't know, honest question.

You should start a thread on Palladium houseruling. This is a great discussion, and you have good ideas deserving of public exposition.

The general advantage came at the end of the round, when the guy with 2 attacks was out and the guy with 5 attacks still had 3 more to go.  

It let the people with less attacks still have an effect, but generally higher attacks = win.  I like the idea of cutting it down to 1 (or 2) attacks per round base, then apply initiative bonuses based on the other attacks, as long as the round time gets cut down.  Palladium, as an active system, doesn't go as well for the whole d&d "oh, but there's lots and lots of ineffective attacks and parries" business.

Thanks for the compliment, I might take this out and put something up on the design forum, I've got to run for the evening, maybe when I come back.

Cheers,

panzer

So, any additional constructive thoughts on it?

Additional houserules we used to a greater or lesser degree were:

Using different stats instead of IQ for skill bonuses:  You would use your closes applicable stat on the IQ bonus table for skills that don't relate directly to IQ.  For instance, with a high MA, you could get a bonus to Acting using the IQ table.  PB might be applicable to the seduction skill, etc.  We found that in the average robotech game, where people were running around with PP's as their high stat all the time, that using it for piloting skills wasn't as good, and eventually this idea kind of fell by the wayside.

MD weapons against unarmored targets:  We wanted to reduce some of the god awful lethality of MD weapons, and so we went with these rules for the poor saps getting blow-through damage.  Ballistic MD weapons immediately reduce an SDC scale being's SDC to 0.  They also deal damagex10 hp.  Generally, this will still kill people dead, but it gives you a chance when you're looking at those last 2 points of MD penetrating your armor.
  Energy weapons deal x100 SDC, and in the case of man-portable weapons, have the same effect as ballistics, x10 direct to hp.  In the case of PA or mecha weapons, they roll for location, and pretty much just destroy that limb (roll however you like, I liked either using a d6 that had all the limb locations on it, or my modified hit locations from cyberpunk 1=head, 2-6=body, 7=r arm, 8=l arm, 9=r leg, 0=l leg).  If the head or torso are hit, it's an autokill.  If not, then it's cybernetics/bionics time.

I'm sure there's others, and I'll probably remember more later, but that's what I can think of offhand.

Anyone else have anything interesting?

With bursts, we just went with the book. At first, we tried house rules, but no one was ever satisfied with those house rules, so we grudgingly used the rules as written much of the time.

I like your idea of just using robot piloting attacks instead of adding the pilot's hand to hand to it. However, do you also reduce the attacks of supernatural monsters so the robots have a chance against them?

For attacks per melee, my group generally just didn't use the "2 attacks for living" clause. If you don't have a hand to hand skill (or have hth Assassin), you have 1 attack. Others, you start with two. At most, a 1st level character can have 3 attacks (with boxing) without some special racial trait.

we also always had the person with more attacks finish the round, rather than space them around the people with fewer attacks.

MD vs SDC
 MD weapons ignore SDC armor ratings, the MD converted one for one to SDC damage. Basically, a rail gun round or a laser beam will just go through armor and flesh like nothing; not completely vaporize (like a phaser) or explode the SDC person. Critical hits on the other hand would be loss of a limb, organ, or death.

Quote from: everloss;657000With bursts, we just went with the book. At first, we tried house rules, but no one was ever satisfied with those house rules, so we grudgingly used the rules as written much of the time.

I like your idea of just using robot piloting attacks instead of adding the pilot's hand to hand to it. However, do you also reduce the attacks of supernatural monsters so the robots have a chance against them?

I'd need a specific example, all my Rifts books are halfway around the world on their way to Hawaii right now.

Overall, I'd say no, specifically because the majority of (full size) Robots in Rifts are multi-crew affairs, and when you have a gunner who can put all his attacks per melee into shooting, and the pilot who can use all his for defense and/or physical attacks or shooting if needed, you wind up culling the advantage that the supernatural critter has pretty quickly.  Also, when you're looking at the majority of creatures that would have an equal or greater number of physical attacks per melee, they're the sort of things that should be a major threat to a single robot.  For instance, I looked up the Ice Dragon RCC here, and it says:

Quote from: Palladium/Rifts Fansite WikiAdult Combat: Seven physical attacks per melee, or four fire breath and three physical, or two by magic. Favorite weapon is magic.

(Sorry for using fansite stuff, but like I said, no actual references on hand...)

which doesn't seem like too much of an overmatch to a pair of guys in a Titan with 3 attacks each. (they'll still get et, but not blatently overwhelmed by the attacks per melee)

Quote from: everloss;657005we also always had the person with more attacks finish the round, rather than space them around the people with fewer attacks.

That was a point that we used as well, and I thought about including it here, so since you brought it up...

We used attacks per melee as a pool, which a character could use as needed.  You were allowed to dodge once per attack pass, which resulted in a standing target number to avoid all attacks against you, and cost you one attack, but didn't remove your ability to attack that phase.  You just used one of your later attacks during the round.  Autododges didn't cost an attack, but had to be rolled separately against every attack that came in against them.  You could also parry (if properly equipped, for instance the Arm Shields on most Southern Cross mecha), costing an attack for each use, and Roll with Punch, Fall or Impact (we just called it PFI as a verb) to reduce explosive or ballistic damage.  Overall, it enabled characters to keep spending their attacks to keep themselves alive, while maintaining the idea of one actual attack per 'pass'.  Once all your attacks were gone, you were a sitting duck unless you had autododges.

I hadn't thought about multiple person crewed robots. I've never played a Rifts game where anyone used a robot that wasn't for a single character.

Quote from: everloss;657035I hadn't thought about multiple person crewed robots. I've never played a Rifts game where anyone used a robot that wasn't for a single character.

It came up more in Robotech games, most of the Destroids had seats for crew.