Quote from: TonyLBOkay.  I guess I can't really criticize, since there are lines beyond which I don't want to imagine, too.  But I think that your argument that there is no further understanding to be gained than to know the bald facts is a bit odd.

No.

I am saying the facts are fully sufficient for understanding. I am saying that storygames-type imagination is a pathetic substitute for the impact of actual reality.

Quote from: TonyLBOkay.  I guess I can't really criticize, since there are lines beyond which I don't want to imagine, too.  But I think that your argument that there is no further understanding to be gained than to know the bald facts is a bit odd.

Get a fucking grip Tony. A leisure activity? Bollocks to that. Educational tool in a school or college? Nope. How the hell is this going to do anything that a good book won't? Playing the part of a protagonist is going to help how exactly? You can't put yourself into that position in a roleplaying game and thus anything you do will be tripe. Offensive fucking tripe. If my great grandmother was still with us, i'd point this out and give her a fucking lighter.

Quote from: Abyssal MawWe're not talking about understanding, Tony. We're talking about using a leisure imaginative activity to get vicarious thrills while simultaneously shitting on an entire group of people's history.

I assume you haven't read the blog entries or this discussion very carefully. Doing so, and dismissing it as being not your cup of tea, an intellectual wank for middle class people with no real life experience or even a bit offensive, I can understand. And even relate to. These are absolutely legitimate questions that my good friend Matthijs should be asked, and should ask himself. I'm guessing that's part of his reason for starting this thread.

Labeling it "monstrous" or as "shitting on an entire group of people's history", I don't quite get. Your heavy-handed rhetorical style may be your stab at a forum persona or something. But quips like "the notoriously anti-Jewish Norwegian government" or on how "monstrous" this art concept is just seems a little... clueless.

Maybe RPG or activities utilizing RPG-techniques can be a vehicle for exploring subjects like this one. Maybe they cannot. As others have mentioned, we seem to accept fictional exploration/treatment of the Holocaust in movies, books, dramas and comics. Maybe RPGs are inherently different from these other media in this regard. Maybe they're not. Let's look at the play test results. Let's examine the actual methods that are proposed. Let's not dismiss the idea off-hand, solely based on our prejudice.

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Quote from: RPGpunditBut you did mention it. You mentioned it as if to say "D20 is a stupid game, and this game is a serious game that is Art and would never be stupid the way D20 is". That's precisely what you meant, wasn't it?

Dear John; how's life? I've gotten my ass over to Brazil. Did a crime-story in Natal, been lounging in Salvador for about a month. Think I'll head on over to Surinam and the Guyanas before Venezuela.

You're an incredibly smart guy, but your single-minded rants on The Forge and d20 do tend to make you come off as sort of a one-trick pony. A lot of us have sort of been there, done that, and moved on. You know?

I don't quite recall the English expression, but in Norway we call quotes like the one above "putting words in people's mouths."

Quote from: olepederLabeling it "monstrous" or as "shitting on an entire group of people's history", I don't quite get. Your heavy-handed rhetorical style may be your stab at a forum persona or something. But quips like "the notoriously anti-Jewish Norwegian government" or on how "monstrous" this art concept is just seems a little... clueless..

It's clueless to think you can tell me how your country is perceived by MY people. Believe me, Norway gets a special mention in the big list of "places we shouldn't ever go back to".

I'll grant that the norwegians generally don't discriminate and foster hate against Jews for racial reasons. Just political ones, right.

Anyhow, I know I'm not prone to being charitable to forgies on general principles but this, this takes the fucking cake.

Quote from: Abyssal MawWe're not talking about understanding, Tony. We're talking about using a leisure imaginative activity to get vicarious thrills while simultaneously shitting on an entire group of people's history.

You really think they have bad intentions? I took the general promise as touchy-feely art guys trying to emphasize. Not in the best taste, but I think they mean well.

Quote from: SosthenesYou really think they have bad intentions? I took the general promise as touchy-feely art guys trying to emphasize. Not in the best taste, but I think they mean well.

Well, I do take it as them trying to empathize and be touchy feely as well.  And also to insert other "Approved Moral Teachings" in there as well--I mean, I've seen the actual play reports for games like I imagine this one to be.

My point is: it's undescribably tacky, awful, and insulting to do this. It's either going to be maudlin and awful, or all "dark and intense" awful, and it's being played as ...a game? That is so fucked up. The holocaust is not an ABC Afterschool Special, it's not up for interpretation, and any take on it will necessarily be revisionist. And how in the hell are these people authorities? And whats the point? Are they trying to excuse theirselves? Is this some kind of "see, we're totally blameless about how we acted in October of 1942.. look, we had a game commissioned, and we all played it and everyone agreed, man...IN-tense! So yeah. Vidkun Quisling? Our bad. Now then, we've got a check for 100 million euros we'd like to send to a terrorist group that has vowed to exterminate all Jews.. who should we make this out to?"

It's so fucking awful, I can't even really begin to describe what a shitty thing this is. If the norwegian government will approve a game about space aliens, or dinosaurs or whatever, I highly recommend he write about that instead. Because the dinosaurs are already dead and the space aliens don't care.

Quote from: Abyssal MawAre they trying to excuse theirselves? Is this some kind of "see, we're totally blameless about how we acted in October of 1942.. look, we had a game commissioned, and we all played it and everyone agreed, man...IN-tense!.

Hmm? I don't think any participant in that "game" is an octogenarian.

The "revisionism" argument doesn't really do it for me. Any movie or play that has the Holocaust as a topic (or even barely touches it) has the same problem, and I think that some of those have been pretty good.

It's just that people at a gaming table (or dark room, art dorm whatever) aren't able to get anything near their self-described goal. The "target" they're aiming for is so far out, that the try itself can only cause damage. Concentration camps, the Trail of Tears, Nanking, Hiroshima -- simply no _use_ in gaming that. Actually, if this really were a Forgite game, it would be better. Some kind of mechanics to measure suffering or similar shite -- at least it would turn the experience in some kind of allegory, abstract enough that something could be gained from it (like the better movies do). Instead, I kinda see it as really forced empathy without any resolve. Suffering porn.

I sincerely hope that the author proves me wrong in that regard.

Only if failure in mechanic leads to horrible starvation, torture, human misery, and, finally, death.  Otherwise, it's play acting to try to feel that? As you said, it's impossible.

That only leaves the "I want to learn something about myself/humanity." To which I say - Bullshit. Find another way - this ain't it.

I think a pretty key question in assessing this whole project is: what exactly is this "game" supposed to teach?

RPGPundit

This is about as close as I can get for comfort, to anything like "roleplaying" the Holocaust:

Holocaust ID Cards (680k PDF)

The idea is that at the US Holocaust Museum main exhibit, each visitor is assigned an "ID card" that allows them to trace the fate of one person who was a victim of the Holocaust. Some of them live, some of them die. Some are Jews, some aren't.

I do find the idea of anyone privately "roleplaying" Holocaust experiences under the pretense of gaining greater insight vaguely troubling, perhaps even obscene. I'm not offended by (in fact I greatly appreciate) other fictional or fictionalized treatments, from Maus to The Pianist to Europa, Europa to Life is Beautiful.

Perhaps the reason why I'm troubled by the idea is that, if it weren't about a historical event--if it were an entirely fictional RPG where the PCs either "happened to become victims in the course of play", or where the point of the game was to play victims of genocide...I'd find any focus on playing out the sufferings to be rather narcissistic puffery. The taint is inescapable, and when it's combined with the actuality of the event, it stops being somewhat laughable and becomes obscene.

All of the above comes after only a glance through the blog and a look at a related thread on storygames. If there were a better overview of how the "game" works, it might affect my opinion, but those are my initial thoughts.

Strangely, if this were presented not as a game (or even a "private interactive story") but as a framework for some kind of improvisational drama with or without audience participation, I'd give it a lot more leeway.

Quote from: James J SkachThat only leaves the "I want to learn something about myself/humanity." To which I say - Bullshit. Find another way - this ain't it.

That's actually the biggest danger, the mere thought that you truly _understand_ it. Going in even thinking that you're capable of that is beyond me.

That's why I don't understand the concentration camp part. What would you expect to learn from that? That it was bad? No shit, Sherlock!
Things surrounding the camps (the aforementioned live of Jews before the Holocaust and the intentional "ignorance" of the general populace) might lead you to know some facts that you missed in school, but why should a game be a better medium to get that along than a book or good documentary? If you're interested enough to participate in such a morbid experiment, I think you should be interested enough to be able to focus on more traditional teaching material. I'd say that even a play with a script would be better for that, plus you'd influence an audience, too. What does improvisation and freedom of form _get_ you here? Honestly?

Quote from: Pierce InverarityWhich is, of course, part one of the two-part "argument" of the Holocaust deniers:

1) "I can't imagine it."

2) "It can't have happened." (Sometimes, as we know, part 2 is left purposely unstated.)

I am not saying you're one of them, Tony. In fact, I'm sure you're not. I am saying that this kind of thinking is misguided.

We've all seen the photos and the footage. That gets rid of all that BS. It's right there, no imagination required.

 Whats really messed up - I can imagine it .  Thats why I know its a BAD idea for an RPG.  Don't remember what author or book it was - but some autobiography of a Holocaust survivor  - GOT to me  and I was there in the scene. His writing was that evocative. Damn images have stuckj with for years. Every time I see a movie or show with a fictionalized scene set at those camps - I get a little twisted up inside,  nauseous and angry at the same time.

 Still think this whole game (or whatever dumb made-up phase they decided to use instead) is a bad idea.

Its like a perversion of the RPG.

 I know the guy is getting paid to do this ...but it needs re-thinking. Hell, even getting paid to design such a thing seems wrong.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaTo be fair (and, in saying that, I realise I'm not being particularly fair at all), this project reminds me very much of the same kind of morbid fascination that people who write and/or play violent post-apocalyptic RPGs -- you know, the kind where society has fallen and barbarism of the most venal kind is explored in depth. T. Willard's Year of the Zombie comes to mind.  These games are written by people who obviously haven't gone through the horrors they're playing with, too.  It's personal entertainment born of someone else's misery, and I think it's a bad idea in any case.

!i!

Hey, umm, Ian.  I'm writing a post-apocalypse RPG.  

Could you maybe just think for a sec, and not lump me in with some pretentious shithead who's exploiting the deaths of over 6 million people for his own personal entertainment and pseudointellectual wankery?

I'm usually one to shrug off a slight like that, but that was pretty harsh.

Quote from: Abyssal MawIt's clueless to think you can tell me how your country is perceived by MY people.

It is also clueless for you to think that you can tell how all jews think just because you're jewish.  Like I said to JimBob, I think that using your jewish identity as a rhetorical bludgeon is a really bone-headed move.


Now I understand that for people who believe that RPGs cannot possibly address this type of topic in a respectful manner, even proposing an RPG address it is the same as proposing that it approach it disrespectfully.

I hope that those same people can understand that there are folks who do not share their baseline assumptions.  Matthijs clearly feels that RPGs have at least the potential to address this in a respectful way.  While you may disagree with him in the strongest terms, I think that calling his actions "monstrous" just because you think they're misguided is pretty small-minded.

Quote from: TonyLBIt is also clueless for you to think that you can tell how all jews think just because you're jewish.  Like I said to JimBob, I think that using your jewish identity as a rhetorical bludgeon is a really bone-headed move.


Now I understand that for people who believe that RPGs cannot possibly address this type of topic in a respectful manner, even proposing an RPG address it is the same as proposing that it approach it disrespectfully.

I hope that those same people can understand that there are folks who do not share their baseline assumptions.  Matthijs clearly feels that RPGs have at least the potential to address this in a respectful way.  While you may disagree with him in the strongest terms, I think that calling his actions "monstrous" just because you think they're misguided is pretty small-minded.

I suspect "respect" is the furthest thing from his mind. Respect would mean leaving this particular topic alone.

Bottom line: Matthis is looking for a gripping, controversial,  "serious" topic for his story game, and he doesn't really even think about the casual pain and insult this heaps upon the families and graves of better men than him. Or you.

And if you really want to "show this down", then you bring your Jews, and I'll bring mine and we'll see who feels like what.