Quote from: Eric PerdueTha game really hit me in the gut. I certainly did not find it to be trivialising, or "fun" in a narrow sense of the word. This is not D20 Holocaust.

No one is suggesting it is.

What we're trying to find out is whether its "The Forge Presents: Holocaust!"

You see, D20 fans would never stoop to creating a game about the fucking Holocaust just to feel all smart about themselves. But I certainly wouldn't put it past some of the Swine. Hell, White Wolf did so already.

So I don't see where you get D20 involved in this fiasco. Its the Swine who like to pull shit like this, not us.

In the end, my question to the author would be: what the fuck is the point? I mean, literally: what is the goal of the "game"?
Why is the Norwegian government paying you?
What do they expect in return?
What will they use the "game" for, if anything?
What do you "do" in the game?

I'm willing to give some benefit of the doubt, since this might only be a "roleplaying game" in the same sense that the stuff psychologists designed to help therapy patients is a "roleplaying game", as in, nothing at all like what we do. (in which case I'd have to wonder why the fuck the original poster is writing here, though?)

On top of that, I really have to question what the author's qualifications are for writing such a game? I don't mean: was he or his family personally a victim of the Holocaust; I mean more like: is he an historian? Sociologist? Pyschologist? Political scientist? Does he have some kind of academic background that makes him able to write this "game" in a serious and professional way? Or did he just read a lot of Ron Edwards' essays?

Those are the sort of things I would like answers to.  I won't jump to conclusions on what the guy is doing with this, but I'm highly cynical about it, especially having family members who died in the camps.  I'm particularly cynical with the angle the game might take; be it "You too can play a Jewish victim!", or "Norwegians were heroic resistors all", or "only Jews were victims", or "everyone was a victim, not just the Jews"; ie. all of the questions surrounding the "victim game" and the "blame game" that gets endlessly circulated in talking about the Holocaust...

RPGPundit

QuoteTha game really hit me in the gut. I certainly did not find it to be trivialising, or "fun" in a narrow sense of the word. This is not D20 Holocaust.

Now, this is the ultimate thread:

Thematic Gaming evangelism, D20 bashing, the Shoah, Roleplaying as Art, the root of evil in the real world and not the very least the SS*.

I will now respectfully bow out of this discussion, as I fear a combination of flameworthy material of the most magnificent order has been presented in a stupendeously offensive and pretentious way.

I leave with repeating my notion that educational roleplaying should always happen under trained supervision.

Respectfully,

Settembrini

* Why always the SS? Makes you wonder.

Quote from: Eric PerdueTha game really hit me in the gut. I certainly did not find it to be trivialising, or "fun" in a narrow sense of the word. This is not D20 Holocaust..

"...And it was totally intense! We're totally going to do a podcast about how kick-ass it was when my Jewish woman totally poisoned her three small children to avoid being captured by the nazis, and then performed an abortion on herself before shooting herself in the face.. FOR LOVE. We totally engaged the premise! This is what story is all about! Awesome! Hey Matthis, sign me up for three copies, I've got to get this into the hands of those d20 cretins. We're going to educate the world!"

That's what trivialization means, guys.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhat we're trying to find out is whether its "The Forge Presents: Holocaust!"

No, we're not.

QuoteYou see, D20 fans would never stoop to creating a game about the fucking Holocaust just to feel all smart about themselves.

Yes, they might.

Look, keep your personal agenda out of this.

!i!

Quote from: RPGPunditWhat we're trying to find out is whether its "The Forge Presents: Holocaust!"

It is not. I think. I am not a Forge-head myself, but  have played a fair number of Forge games, and Kristallnacht is not like them at all. I'll leave it to Matthijs to elaborate on this.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou see, D20 fans would never stoop to creating a game about the fucking Holocaust just to feel all smart about themselves. (...) So I don't see where you get D20 involved in this fiasco.

I don't get d20 involved in "this fiasco". That is precisely my point.

Anyway, I think we should not let this thread deviate into a discussion about d20. I would not have mentioned it if I had known it would cause such reactions. Let's stick to the game in question.

As far as qualifications goes, all I know is that Matthijs is a great games designer. I don't think most historians or sociologists would be able to make something like this, even if they know a lot about the Holocaust. Writing academic papers and role-playing games are two completely different things.

I'll say that Kristallnacht clearly is a role-playing game. But it is a different role-playing game than most or all games I know about, hence my comment about d20.

Quote from: Eric PerdueI don't get d20 involved in "this fiasco". That is precisely my point.

Anyway, I think we should not let this thread deviate into a discussion about d20. I would not have mentioned it if I had known it would cause such reactions. Let's stick to the game in question.

But you did mention it. You mentioned it as if to say "D20 is a stupid game, and this game is a serious game that is Art and would never be stupid the way D20 is".  That's precisely what you meant, wasn't it?
That's precisely the attitude that makes me very cautious about this game: it strikes me as very likely that its been designed by people who want to feel smart and good about themselves while playing a game, and think they're better people for making RPGs "serious", and its really all about that, and the Holocaust is nothing more than your solemn vehicle by which to show off how "serious" you can be at RPGs.

QuoteAs far as qualifications goes, all I know is that Matthijs is a great games designer. I don't think most historians or sociologists would be able to make something like this, even if they know a lot about the Holocaust. Writing academic papers and role-playing games are two completely different things.

Yes, they are. So writing an RPG about a subject that is serious and NOT A FUCKING GAME should probably not be done, unless you also happen to be a historian, sociologist or psychologist who's planning to use the damn thing for purposes other than to let you and your artsy buddies feel all sophisticated.

Because otherwise you're going to end up with a game that trivializes many issues surrounding the holocaust, while at the same time being extremely pretentious about being an RPG about the holocaust. Very bad combination.

QuoteI'll say that Kristallnacht clearly is a role-playing game. But it is a different role-playing game than most or all games I know about, hence my comment about d20.

Right, yes. "different". The way Shab al-hiri Roach or My Life With Master is different.  :rolleyes:

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditBut you did mention it. You mentioned it as if to say "D20 is a stupid game, and this game is a serious game that is Art and would never be stupid the way D20 is".  That's precisely what you meant, wasn't it?

Maybe he meant that it's not going to be like Choice and Blood, the crass "d20 Abortion" supplement from Louis Porter, Jr. Designs.  You see, people do this sort of stupid shit with d20 too, a fact that has an established track record.  In fact, when I first heard about this Holocaust/Shoah project, I had assumed, like many, that it was LPJD that was doing it, and that it was another of his d20 supplements.

The system it uses isn't the issue.  The sides chosen in your imaginary war aren't the issue.  Kick that shit to the curb and stop bending this thread to your inane agenda.

!i!

Quote from: RPGPunditBut you did mention it. You mentioned it as if to say "D20 is a stupid game, and this game is a serious game that is Art and would never be stupid the way D20 is".  That's precisely what you meant, wasn't it?

No, it is not. I have gamemastered, played in and enjoyed lots of d20 campaigns in my time, the last one being finished about six months ago. D20/D&D in its various incarnations is the single game system I have played the most. It like it. But not for all uses. I would, for example, be catious about a d20 game about the Holocaust, just as I am sceptical about d20 Afghanistan, Iraq and Colombia. D20 seems to me to be better suited to fantasy than attempts at realism.

I got the impression that several of the sceptical comments in this thread was founded on a similiar scepticism. That was the reason for my comment about d20.

I see now that is has been interpreted as d20-bashing, which was not my intention.

Quote from: Eric PerdueI would, for example, be catious about a d20 game about the Holocaust, just as I am sceptical about d20 Afghanistan, Iraq and Colombia. D20 seems to me to be better suited to fantasy than attempts at realism.

Oh, so you are talking about system and not strictly content.  Okay, you're on your own here.

!i!

Quote from: Eric PerdueNo, it is not. I have gamemastered, played in and enjoyed lots of d20 campaigns in my time, the last one being finished about six months ago. D20/D&D in its various incarnations is the single game system I have played the most. It like it. But not for all uses. I would, for example, be catious about a d20 game about the Holocaust, just as I am sceptical about d20 Afghanistan, Iraq and Colombia. D20 seems to me to be better suited to fantasy than attempts at realism.

I got the impression that several of the sceptical comments in this thread was founded on a similiar scepticism. That was the reason for my comment about d20.

I see now that is has been interpreted as d20-bashing, which was not my intention.

See when you say all this, all you really end up saying is "I would trust White Wolf's system/Ron Edwards' stuff/Vince Baker/whatever to do a Holocaust RPG".  You're still saying as long as its not "stupid" like D20 its ok.

Whereas I'm saying I don't trust ANY system or design theory to do this right. And in fact, I'm convinced that if the designer is taking a Big Model/Game Theory/Forgian- whatever pov as his base, this game will be a disaster waiting to happen, in part because Theory Swine believe they're "elite" and intellectual enough to pull this shit off.

RPGPundit

With all due respect to Pundit, who can find d20 bashing in even more places than me...I'm actually more interested in this statement from Mr. Perdue:

Quote from: Eric PerdueI am one of the playtesters of this game. I found it to be an engaging and emotionally challenging experience. It taught me a lot about myself, and also something about history.

So an RPG about the Holocaust taught you something about yourself? Oh yeah, and something about history (as an afterthought, almost!).

See, this is the fear I have - trivialization of one of the most horrific human tragedies so the players can learn something about themslevs.

That's just...crass.

What you should have learned about yourself is that you had to experience the holocaust through a supposed RPG in order to learn something about yourself. That's far more...jesus..I'm actually at a loss for words.

Quote from: TonyLBY'know one of the first phrases that comes to my mind about the Holocaust?  "I can't imagine."

Literally.  I cannot imagine that.  I don't have the mental tools to even begin to get my mind wrapped around it.

Which is, of course, part one of the two-part "argument" of the Holocaust deniers:

1) "I can't imagine it."

2) "It can't have happened." (Sometimes, as we know, part 2 is left purposely unstated.)

I am not saying you're one of them, Tony. In fact, I'm sure you're not. I am saying that this kind of thinking is misguided.

We've all seen the photos and the footage. That gets rid of all that BS. It's right there, no imagination required.

Which in turn makes RPGs on the subject redundant, in fact obscenely presumptuous. As if the "imagination" or the "psychological subtlety" of a middle-class leisure society subjectivity were required to make sense of what would otherwise be "inexplicable" or "abstract."

Nothing's more educational on the matter than a nice factual history book with lots of illustrations. Or the interviews in Lanzmann's Shoah. Or Night and Fog by Resnais.

When it comes to actual atrocities, stick to the documentary format.

Quote from: James J SkachSo an RPG about the Holocaust taught you something about yourself? Oh yeah, and something about history (as an afterthought, almost!).

See, this is the fear I have - trivialization of one of the most horrific human tragedies so the players can learn something about themslevs.

That's just...crass.

What you should have learned about yourself is that you had to experience the holocaust through a supposed RPG in order to learn something about yourself. That's far more...jesus..I'm actually at a loss for words.

Right on, James. Right on. It's shameless.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityWe've all seen the photos and the footage. That gets rid of all that BS. It's right there, no imagination required.

You've seen the photos of the suffering, and that's as far as you choose to go in imagining the plight of the victims?  You know what it looked like.

Okay.  I guess I can't really criticize, since there are lines beyond which I don't want to imagine, too.  But I think that your argument that there is no further understanding to be gained than to know the bald facts is a bit odd.

Quote from: TonyLBYou've seen the photos of the suffering, and that's as far as you choose to go in imagining the plight of the victims?  You know what it looked like.

Okay.  I guess I can't really criticize, since there are lines beyond which I don't want to imagine, too.  But I think that your argument that there is no further understanding to be gained than to know the bald facts is a bit odd.

We're not talking about understanding, Tony. We're talking about using a leisure imaginative activity to get vicarious thrills while simultaneously shitting on an entire group of people's history.

"Its a game".