Quote from: olepederI think a lot of the problem boils down to a very limited conception of what roleplaying games can/should be. Even a couple of the more critical participants here opens for the possibility that this could be ok as an art project (but then you shouldn't fucking come here and talk about it, mind you...). It's just not a game. Because games are supposed to be fun.

Who exactly is this part addressed to ?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RWho exactly is this part addressed to ?

Regards,
David R

Mainly JimBob. I apologize for the generalizations.

Quote from: olepederI read a commentary article in Newsweek or thereabouts, maybe it was The Economist, on how anger has become a fashionable form of rhetoric in the US. Everyone should be very upset all the time whilst communicating, because it signals some form of gravitas. I think this discussion has suffered due to this phenomenon.

Careful. Not all of us are North American around here, and some of us are politically far to the left of you. You don't want to expose yourself to the very critique of cultural tribalism you yourself use to dismiss the argument of others.

QuoteThis upset needn't necessarily be respected, but it should definitely be registered

I'd like to hear more about the "registering" part, in a concrete and detailed fashion. Until then, it's unclear how your "respect" is different from a shrug.

Onanistic misery tourism. Well, I guess I can't wait for the inevitable podcast gushing.


Pigs.

Quote from: olepederMainly JimBob. I apologize for the generalizations.

No need to apologize. I just thought it was directed at me and you had something you wanted to say. My mistake.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Abyssal MawI have no idea, but that was a hilarious use of the word treyf.

I suppose.  If your idea of humor is for someone to insult another's identity just because you don't agree with their opinion.

To each his own...


TGA

A few questions olepeder. Are there any Jews in your playtest groups? Have the designers interviewed any Jews ? Have you contacted any Jewish orgs and talked about this game? Is all the research coming from books?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: olepederI read a commentary article in Newsweek ......


(I tend to disagree with a lot of Abyssal Maw's statements here (I'm sure he feels likewise about mine), and I suspect that we'll find ourselves diametrically opposed politically. But I believe his upset about this project is genuine. This upset needn't necessarily be respected, but it should definitely be .......

Two things: 1) NEWSWEEK magazine is often WRONG about things or just has shoddy writing in general. For that matter a "commentary" article is hardly an authoratitive source of anything.

2) You're just mistaken or wrong about the need to respect why someone is upset.   This isn't a stubbed toe that we're talking about - it was the calculated and intentional murdering of millions of people.

- Ed C.

You have to admit though, it *is* kinda starting to look like the plot to The Producers.

"So.. most of these games don't make any money?"

"Yes, but.. well.. we may be able to get one funded by the Norwegian government.. it will have to be a surefire failure, though"

"How can we insure that we make the worst game possible? What would would it even be about..? It's going to have to be totally awful!"

"Wait... I HAVE AN IDEA!"



I remember the last time I sorta went off about something like this-- on not quite as offensive a subject, but still.. And these guys kept showing up to tell me about how the reason behind all of this stuff was fun. Always. Fun fun fun. Thats the whole motivation behind all of this stuff.

It's such a lie.

Its more likely that the Norwegian government, being full of eurotrash-nannystaters, required that any RPG that qualified for an "Art Grant" had to be "ART", and about a serious topic. And possibly, educational.  God forbid that it be fun, because that might cause people to want sugary foods (and we all knows those will soon be outlawed for people's own good).

In any case, the designers of the game were probably just thinking: What topic can we be really "serious" and pseudo-intellectual enough that it will guarantee that we get considered Art and get paid? In which case, the holocaust was a pretty obvious choice.

Anyways, all of this is just going to add ammo to my arguments about RPGs and "Art".  For a while now, whenever I argued "RPGs are not Art!" some dude would say "yes they are, the scandinavian governments even subsidize them as art!".  Now I can say, "Yes, and look where thinking of RPGs as Art leads you..."

RPGPundit

Actually, in an art context I could see it happen. But I mean real art, honest to goodness contemporary art-art. Like, running it at Documenta, with hapless gallery visitors, in some kind of performance set-up. That could work--but precisely because emo-tourism aka subjectivity wankfests went out of fashion among artists with van Gogh, even as the general public thinks/suspects it's still all about cutting your ear off. So, you'd have a built-in estrangement effect. That said, you can achieve similar results with less sensationalist subject matter.

In an art context- if he were to write a book, paint a painting.. it's totally not a problem. Although that can still suck. I think people have a right to suck at art, though.

In an interpretive medium, specifically one being used for  this kind of vicarious emotional self-stimulation, it runs into issues. I am especially skeptical because of the way that particular community of jackasses loves to enthuse about how 'dark' and 'intense' and 'tragic' they are.  

Like I said..

I'm just waiting for the podcasts. I'm waiting for some guy to say he was "'rocking out' with WAHN..I love when my character fails!!!" or something. That's like the center square on my bingo card of awfulness.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI am especially skeptical because of the way that particular community of jackasses loves to enthuse about how 'dark' and 'intense' and 'tragic' they are.

Foul.  Ten yard penalty.  That's a tendency that's not particular to nor particularly prevalent in any single community.

!i!

Quote from: olepederBut I do feel that criticisms such as: "why isn't this only emotional masturbation?", "if it is emotional masturbation, something you do mainly to learn more about yourself, why choose this particular subject, this particular form?", "how do Jews feel about the project?", "is this tasteless emo-turism?" are completely legitimate.

I'm a liberal soul, trust my friend and don't really share the concern. So I say go ahead. But I fully understand that people can react this way, and think it should be brought into consideration.

I hesitate to post with more than one point (historically, the least interesting is the one that gets read), but hope springs eternal.

There are several non-Americans responding here; the tone you're detecting may have more to do with your subject matter than the nationality of your respondents.

My main point is that you chose to phrase what you call criticisms as questions.

Are you aware that you did that? Do you know *why* you did that?

Questions can imply criticism, but the rather straight-forward discussion here hasn't been heavy on implication.

I think it's clear that the folks involved in this project, from the author on out, are fairly un-reflective; this isn't a good topic to approach if you're blind to where you're coming from and how your coming off.

I believe you when you say some of the criticism here "should" be considered -- but I don't see any evidence you (collectively -- talking about the people in the project) have a degree of self-awareness that might be required to actually consider it.

And if you're trying to understand why you might encounter an angry tone here, instead of turning an irrelevant Economist article, I suggest you consider that not really having an understanding of the project you're involved in might have something to do with your reception.

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityCareful. Not all of us are North American around here, and some of us are politically far to the left of you. You don't want to expose yourself to the very critique of cultural tribalism you yourself use to dismiss the argument of others.

Indeed. I beg your pardon.

Quote from: olepederThis upset needn’t necessarily be respected, but it should definitely be registered

Quote from: Pierce InverarityI'd like to hear more about the "registering" part, in a concrete and detailed fashion. Until then, it's unclear how your "respect" is different from a shrug.

Yeah, I've been thinking a bit about the phrasing of that one. I believe people’s feelings and opinions should be taken into account, universally. No matter who they are, or how fucked up their opinion is. That is what I meant by "registered." This might as well be framed as ”respected." I do not, however, believe that all these feelings and opinions should necessarily be allowed to limit a project you believe in. That's what I meant but "needn't necessarily be respected." I'm hoping this clarified my previous statement somewhat.

Quote from: David R.Are there any Jews in your playtest groups? Have the designers interviewed any Jews ? Have you contacted any Jewish orgs and talked about this game? Is all the research coming from books?

1) I don't know that there have been so far. 2) I don't think he has yet, comprehensively. 3) Now, he has. I think that is one of the important outcomes of this discussion. (Yeah, sure, feel free to lunge at that one. To me it illustrates the value of communication, more than my friend being an asshole for not getting the written approval of Jewish organizations before starting to do research and play tests.) 4) So far, I think it has. As previously stated, here, elsewhere and face-to-face with my friend, I hope that will change. It might've been important for him to do thorough research and real play tests before presenting it to outsiders, I'm guessing.

Quote from: Abyssal MawIn an art context- if he were to write a book, paint a painting.. it's totally not a problem. Although that can still suck. I think people have a right to suck at art, though. In an interpretive medium, specifically one being used for this kind of vicarious emotional self-stimulation, it runs into issues.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I think this may be a major source of our differences; the disagreement as to what constitutes art.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI am especially skeptical because of the way that particular community of jackasses loves to enthuse about how 'dark' and 'intense' and 'tragic' they are.

Which community? Norwegian roleplayers? Forgeites? Norwegian angsty Forgeite roleplayers? Do they exist? Are they a community? Where can I meet them? I'd really like to know, cause' it'd be fun to do an article on them for one of our local fanzines. I'm seeing it right now; me striding into a community of jackasses who love to enthuse about how 'dark' and 'intense' and 'tragic' they are. I'm mean, I could really give them the shit-stick in my piece, right? It'd be pretty cool, revealing those wanky Norwegian "artistes" for who they really are!

Quote from: Abyssal MawI remember the last time I sorta went off about something like this-- on not quite as offensive a subject, but still.. And these guys kept showing up to tell me about how the reason behind all of this stuff was fun. Always. Fun fun fun. Thats the whole motivation behind all of this stuff.

It's such a lie.

Who has ever said that this game is supposed to be fun? Have you even read any of the responses of the author?

Quote from: Abyssal MawI'm just waiting for the podcasts. I'm waiting for some guy to say he was "'rocking out' with WAHN..I love when my character fails!!!" or something.

As previously stated; I think a lot of this discussion boils down to differing perceptions of the potential of roleplaying as a medium. I was enormously impressed by the movies "La vita e bella" and "The Pianist". I have no trouble imagining that a role playing game could impress me similarly, with the same subject matter.

Quote from: RPGpunditIts more likely that the Norwegian government, being full of eurotrash-nannystaters, required that any RPG that qualified for an "Art Grant" had to be "ART", and about a serious topic. And possibly, educational. God forbid that it be fun, because that might cause people to want sugary foods (and we all knows those will soon be outlawed for people's own good).

In any case, the designers of the game were probably just thinking: What topic can we be really "serious" and pseudo-intellectual enough that it will guarantee that we get considered Art and get paid? In which case, the holocaust was a pretty obvious choice.

I actually thought something along the same lines. But I happen to have known the author for 11 years. And I'm fairly sure his mind doesn't work quite that way. This is a project he cares about. For other reasons than governmental grants. I'll leave it for him to fend against the rest of your criticism.

There is one designer. One author.

Quote from: -E.There are several non-Americans responding here; the tone you're detecting may have more to do with your subject matter than the nationality of your respondents.

Yes, absolutely. As I've said earlier: I apologize for having made generalized statements.

Quote from: -E.My main point is that you chose to phrase what you call criticisms as questions.

Are you aware that you did that? Do you know *why* you did that?

Good observation. No, I wasn't especially aware of that. Maybe it’s because I'm viewing this as a dialogue from which we all can learn?

Quote from: -E.I think it's clear that the folks involved in this project, from the author on out, are fairly un-reflective; this isn't a good topic to approach if you're blind to where you're coming from and how your coming off.

Myself, I can't really say I'm involved in the project. But having spent a lot of time with the author during the past 11 years, I'd have to argue against us being un-reflective. I think both he and I have a tendency to be overly reflective. And interested in reflection. That's probably part of the reason for him posting here, in a forum in which he knew he was bound to get (constructive) flame.

Personally, I tend to have more respect for someone who will reply "I'm not really sure. I have to think this through", when posed with a difficult question, than a know-it-all.

Quote from: -E.I believe you when you say some of the criticism here "should" be considered -- but I don't see any evidence you (collectively -- talking about the people in the project) have a degree of self-awareness that might be required to actually consider it.

Well, y'know. What can I say. You and I know each other through a few posts on this forum. If we were to meet, you might feel differently. Or you might have your opinion re-enforced. It's not really for me to tell. Personally, I find that I spend a bit too much time on my self-awareness. I should probably focus more on others.

I've learned stuff by participating in this thread. Just like I usually do, or intend to, when I engage in an ethical debate. I wish to learn, reflect and grow in conversation. I don't really see the point of merely trumpeting my views.

Quote from: -E.And if you're trying to understand why you might encounter an angry tone here, instead of turning an irrelevant Economist article, I suggest you consider that not really having an understanding of the project you're involved in might have something to do with your reception.

Absolutely. That's a valid point. Rhetorically, it was probably a dumb-ass move to drag that whole thing into the discussion anyhow.

(I'm not involved in the project. I'm just interested. And I've been drinking with the author for the better part of my life.)