Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI haven't seen what you're working on, so I'm not automatically lumping you in.  Is it a morbid exploration of the most venal descent into barbarism possible?  If not, you're golden.

Gamma World didn't explore the depths of human depravity.  Twilight: 2000 didn't, though it walked that line a time or two.  The Morrow Project excaped that trap.  But there are a few too many post-apoc games out there that smack of excuses for revenge-porn -- Eye-for-an-Eye dialed up to 11.  And that's really at the heart of what most of us in this thread find appalling: Finding entertainment and amusement in human misery and despair.

!i!

I see what your at now.  No, I don't really go in for the human depravity angle, the game's actually intended to be pretty optimistic when it comes to humanity.   Doctor Who is actually kind of a big inspiration where my treatment of people is concerned.  

I'm big on the importance of human potential, that we're this species with a pretty impressive capability for good or evil, but I consider it far more important to focus on the good, rather than wallow in the evil.  I'm not saying the latter needs to be ignored, but spending a bunch of effort on portraying humanity is a bunch of awful horrid creatures really doesn't help anything.

Quote from: -E.Someone, somewhere (recently) on a very similar subject (Wraith, I believe) said that a group mature enough to role-play the Holocaust would be mature enough not to.

Yes. I've been thinking that, in a way, there's nothing wrong with writing this "game" or whatever-you-call-it, nothing wrong with reading it--and I think that reading it could be quite powerful. But actually playing it would be at least as wrong as playing Greg Costikyan's Violence.

What do I mean by wrong? From what I understand of the game--which still isn't much--if someone invited me to play it, even in a way that implied the subject would be treated with all the gravity it deserves--I'd be taken aback. If someone told me they'd actually played the game as a "consumer", I'd be appalled. (Playtests I may consider wrong-headed since IMO they're superfluous for a game that shouldn't be played, but in my book they're not the same as playing the game to play the game.)

With that in mind I think that a set of death camp rules would perhaps be best presented in D20/OGL format, though with exactly the same outcome: no matter who you are, whatever your personal history (perhaps generated lifepath style), your ability scores, your class and level, you die.* In other words it should be a travesty of a game with no play value whatsoever, but with the familiar RPG mechanics juxtaposed to emphasize just that.


*In reality people do make it through, sometimes through connections, sometimes through determination, though mainly through luck. Trying to balance the game in a way that gives the PCs a fair chance, to make actual play enjoyable, would (again) be obscene.

Just to clear something up: It seems people believe that the games takes place inside a concentration camp. It does not.

Quote from: Eric PerdueJust to clear something up: It seems people believe that the games takes place inside a concentration camp. It does not.

This is what I mean by dishonesty. Granted I only briefly glanced at the link..... be upfront about the project.

Regards,
David R

Humans are by far my favourite species.

The Pundit

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*shakes head in disbelief*

Quote from: Eric PerdueJust to clear something up: It seems people believe that the games takes place inside a concentration camp. It does not.

Sorry to quote you twice but what is this game about anyway? What are the rules like? What are possible pc goals? Who are the antagonist (:rolleyes: )? Enough talk about why this game should or should not be made but rather about the game itself.

Edit: Looking through the design blog I find the idea of basing an rpg on Judenrat particularly offensive.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Elliot WilenThis is about as close as I can get for comfort, to anything like "roleplaying" the Holocaust:

Holocaust ID Cards (680k PDF)

The idea is that at the US Holocaust Museum main exhibit, each visitor is assigned an "ID card" that allows them to trace the fate of one person who was a victim of the Holocaust. Some of them live, some of them die. Some are Jews, some aren't.

Yeah, I went to the Washington D.C. Holocaust Museum as part of a fieldtrip. I thought that it was a worthwhile experience and most of my fellow gradeschoolers were mature enough to learn from it too.

Each page in the booklet was keyed to an exhibit, so as you move through the museum, the exhibits cover the Holocaust on a grand scale but booklet covers the same time period on a personal scale.

My character was a young boy and a half-breed (a half-breed like me!) From what I knew of history, I suspected that he wouldn't last long but the booklet advised us to try to identify with our characters so I looked up his home on a map and tried to see how he would fit in with larger world described by the first exhibit. I even learned to pronounce his impossible surname.

On the next page, he died. There wasn't any description except to say that the Nazis were responsible. (Duh!) Anyway, despite it's flaws, I think that the first two pages were worth reading, much more so then the general text that filled the remaining six pages. I could see a RPG treatment succeed if it was as an adjunct to serious study as in the US Holocaust Museum.

Quote from: Matthijs HolterThanks for all your replies!

A few answers:

- Yes, I'm receiving an arts grant for this project.
- I've thought more than twice about whether it was a good idea, and I firmly believe it is.
- The games are meant to help us learn/understand some of the events surrounding the Kristallnacht, the problems of the Judenräte, and the many reasons people didn't interfere with or stop the events as they unfolded.
- I have spoken to Jewish people about this, including people who very much understand the real horrors of the actual events, and have received enthusiastic help and information.

I quite respect that not all RPGers will be interested in trying this out. It's a very different sort of game from what we usually play, and it certainly doesn't come under the heading of "fun". (I do design and play fun games as well).

At the same time, I think when people first hear of the game, they get an idea of what it plays like that is very inaccurate. I suggest taking a look, specifically, at the design notes for "Kristallnacht" to get a better understanding.

I've no doubt that you think you are doing this for good inentions, but exactly what do you expect players to do in this game? Suffer terrible emotional trauma? I certainly wouldn't want to recreate the experience of being in a concentration camp as any form of entertainment.

Quote from: JimBobOzWe still await TonyLB and Pseudoephedrine's Jewish friends who think it's a smashing idea and would like to write something like that themselves.

TonyLB is a Jew.

Quote from: hgjsTonyLB is a Jew.

A plot twist :eek:

Regards,
David R

Quote from: hgjsTonyLB is a Jew.

He always seemed treyf to me. Not fit for consumption. Maybe it was just the smell of the Forge.

But hey, why doesn't he ask his bubba what she thinks of this? She could come watch him and his gamer buddies rolling dice and eating cheetos, and he could say, "hey, someone's doing something like this but for the Shoah. Well okay it's a bit different... more respectful. Really."

Anyway, whether he's got a bit chopped off his willy or not, fact remains that as usual he's not actually praised anything, just defended it from attackers.

Again, I await the legions of Jewish gamers who think it's a smashing idea and will write something like it. Not, "it could be useful", or "an interesting read", but people who actually like it and will play it. Why not give us an Actual Play, bubeleh Tony?

Quote from: JimBobOzHe always seemed treyf to me. Not fit for consumption. Maybe it was just the smell of the Forge.

I had intended to stay way the fuck out of this clusterfuck.  In fact, JB, I largely have agreed with your points, but you are *really* being an amazing asshole here.  How Jewish does Tony have to be to have an opinion?  Why are you more Jewish than he is?  How do you know this?  Why do you think that you have the right to insult him in this manner?

For that matter, what kind of test is there for being able to have an opinion on this topic?  I am not a Jew.  Should that matter?  If I happen to have a graduate degree in History (with a specialization in Modern Europe) and teach on the university level, does that change things?

Just interested.


TGA

I have no idea, but that was a hilarious use of the word treyf.

I read a commentary article in Newsweek or thereabouts, maybe it was The Economist, on how anger has become a fashionable form of rhetoric in the US. Everyone should be very upset all the time whilst communicating, because it signals some form of gravitas. I think this discussion has suffered due to this phenomenon.

That being said, I think there have been many good, well-reasoned criticisms. Even though it’ll hurt, somewhat in the fashion that the game hopefully will hurt to play, I believe Matthijs (and those of us who are interested in the project) have a lot to gain by taking these into consideration. Not falling into the same communicational trap that some people here seem to have a tendency towards.

(I tend to disagree with a lot of Abyssal Maw’s statements here (I’m sure he feels likewise about mine), and I suspect that we’ll find ourselves diametrically opposed politically. But I believe his upset about this project is genuine. This upset needn’t necessarily be respected, but it should definitely be registered.)

I think a lot of the problem boils down to a very limited conception of what roleplaying games can/should be. Even a couple of the more critical participants here seem open to the possibility that this could be ok as an art project (but then you shouldn’t fucking come here and talk about it, mind you…). It’s just not a game. Because games are supposed to be fun.

The comparison with the cards at the Holocaust museum is excellent. These might as well have been play aids in Matthijs' game, from what I know about the project.

But I do feel that criticisms such as: ”why isn’t this only emotional masturbation?”, “if it is emotional masturbation, something you do mainly to learn more about yourself, why choose this particular subject, this particular form?”, “how do Jews feel about the project?”, “is this tasteless emo-turism?” are completely legitimate.

I’m a liberal soul, trust my friend and don’t really share the concern. So I say go ahead. But I fully understand that people can react this way, and think it should be brought into consideration.

And by the way; saying “Quisling” doesn’t work like a magical word that’ll make all Norwegians bow their heads in shame and go away. In which country do you think he’s most reviled? In which country do you think kids learn the most about him in school? I don't believe sin transfers through blood. Not that I'm related to Vidkun. “MY people”? Who’s that? Israelis? People of American citizenship? Every person in the world who considers himself a Jew? Or just the “realest” ones? You seem to have a pretty tribalistic mindset.

Quote from: J ArcaneHey, umm, Ian. I'm writing a post-apocalypse RPG.

Could you maybe just think for a sec, and not lump me in with some pretentious shithead who's exploiting the deaths of over 6 million people for his own personal entertainment and pseudointellectual wankery?

I'm usually one to shrug off a slight like that, but that was pretty harsh.

But it's not harsh for you to dismiss another human being as a "pretentious shithead who's exploiting the deaths of over 6 million people for his own personal entertainment and pseudointellectual wankery"?

Quote from: JimBobOzOccupation 1942, Juhana's fallout shelter weekend, and now this - there seems to be this long Scandanavian tradition of "rpgs" where your characters suffer passively. And people wonder why they have a high suicide rate despite their excellent social welfare policies. Seems to me they've got a preference for melancholy.

Heh. Good point.