(This is my first post on the RPG site; I just registered. I hope it's okay to post this here - I see other people post about their design. If not, remove this post).

I'm currently designing a set of games about the shoah - the Nazi holocaust of WWII. The first, Kristallnacht, is in playtest; the second, Judenrat, is in design; and the third, How Not To Care, is in planning.

You can read more about the project on this blog:

We All Had Names

Feel free to comment on the blog, or mail me at matthijs1000 {at} hotmail {dot} com.

You still getting the grant from the government for this one?

I've told people a few times about this, that there was a guy getting a government grant to write an rpg about the Holocaust, but I don't think anyone really believed me.

My only comment on the game, is "oy, vey."

The whole idea just seems monstrously wrong - to do that as an RPG.

One of the players in my game , in REAL life -  lost most of her original family in the Holocast.

- Ed C.

I don't know if I'd go to "monstrously wrong" this early in my knowledge of the game, but I get the distinct impression that at no point would the word "fun" come up.

I mean, the only ways I can see to play it are a) straight-up earnest genuine emotional exploration, or b) black comedy.

And even I'd be uncomfortable playing a Holocaust RPG as black humor. Frankly, I'm a little uncomfortable with the idea of involving the Holocaust in my leisure and recreational activities, you know? At least there's an underpinning of humor in the rest of the Nazi shit ("Are we the baddies?", bad accents, playing them absurdly over the top)....

I don't know, the foreign RPG market always seems really foreign to me. Especially their microgames and LARPs. Still, all power to you. Write the best horrifically depressing trio of RPGs you can!

Quote from: Sosthenes

Wraith book, I'm guessing?

Well, sure. Wraith prevented suicide only because you worried being dead would be as depressing as playing.

Ape,
 Its like this.... I've heard the player talk sometimes ...then stop.  She doesn't what her real age is. Because she was adopted.

 You know that whole six degrees of seperation thing ?  Because of her  I am less than three steps or people from folks that were killed in that.....

  I've known this person since I was a teenager.

Just telling our favorite Aussie on here in an e-mail  that I don't see any possible FUN in this potential game.

 At least with GURPS:World War II, I caould run a scenario where the players liberate a camp near the end of the war.

 This is one of those RPGs where maybe someone should ask themselves ahead of time:   "Is making this game really such a good idea?"

- Ed C.

Quote from: Christmas ApeWraith book, I'm guessing?

Yep, rather controversial in its day...

IMHO not good material for a role-playing game. I'm not saying that this is a topic you have to avoid generally or that it can only be viewed one way, as Roberto Benigni's La Vita e Bella clearly showed, but this is certainly not my kind of tabletop game. Even within the framework of simming, thematic games or whatever you call it this day and hour, I think this specific theme is too problematic and dangerously close to devolve into Hostel-like depravity or wannabe ham actors who degrade the pain of the victims with their angsty faux-suffering.
I wouldn't play a "Sophie's Choice" RPG either, but at least that kind of treatment is a bit 'safer'.

I don't see how it could be fun. IF it were fun, then it's doubly offensive. Those are my people.

What is the authors background? Why would he think this is a good idea?

Thanks for all your replies!

A few answers:

- Yes, I'm receiving an arts grant for this project.
- I've thought more than twice about whether it was a good idea, and I firmly believe it is.
- The games are meant to help us learn/understand some of the events surrounding the Kristallnacht, the problems of the Judenräte, and the many reasons people didn't interfere with or stop the events as they unfolded.
- I have spoken to Jewish people about this, including people who very much understand the real horrors of the actual events, and have received enthusiastic help and information.

I quite respect that not all RPGers will be interested in trying this out. It's a very different sort of game from what we usually play, and it certainly doesn't come under the heading of "fun". (I do design and play fun games as well).

At the same time, I think when people first hear of the game, they get an idea of what it plays like that is very inaccurate. I suggest taking a look, specifically, at the design notes for "Kristallnacht" to get a better understanding.

Quote from: Matthijs Holter(This is my first post on the RPG site; I just registered. I hope it's okay to post this here - I see other people post about their design. If not, remove this post).

I'm currently designing a set of games about the shoah - the Nazi holocaust of WWII. The first, Kristallnacht, is in playtest; the second, Judenrat, is in design; and the third, How Not To Care, is in planning.

You can read more about the project on this blog:

We All Had Names

Feel free to comment on the blog, or mail me at matthijs1000 {at} hotmail {dot} com.

I wasn't able to make heads or tails out of your blog; what were you looking for with this post?

If it's feedback, you might want to provide a brief description of your game or something.

My immediate reaction is that this is treacherous terrain. When making a game or any kind of entertainment you run a risk of trivializing your subject matter.

This is true even if that's not your intention -- as the designer you may not be able to tell if you've made a terrible mistake or not.

Posting to game design boards and asking for feedback is a good place to start but beware of echo-chambers; some of the links on your blog go to places with (as I understand it) histories of not providing appropriate negative feedback.

One more thought: No one undertakes a project like this without some kind of agenda -- what's yours?

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: Matthijs HolterThanks for all your replies!

A few answers:

- Yes, I'm receiving an arts grant for this project.
- I've thought more than twice about whether it was a good idea, and I firmly believe it is.
- The games are meant to help us learn/understand some of the events surrounding the Kristallnacht, the problems of the Judenräte, and the many reasons people didn't interfere with or stop the events as they unfolded.
- I have spoken to Jewish people about this, including people who very much understand the real horrors of the actual events, and have received enthusiastic help and information.

I quite respect that not all RPGers will be interested in trying this out. It's a very different sort of game from what we usually play, and it certainly doesn't come under the heading of "fun". (I do design and play fun games as well).

At the same time, I think when people first hear of the game, they get an idea of what it plays like that is very inaccurate. I suggest taking a look, specifically, at the design notes for "Kristallnacht" to get a better understanding.

Wow. How did I ever guess you weren't Jewish yourself?

Two things:

The method of roleplay has been, is, and will be used for dead fucking serious stuff involving big decisions about people getting killed in the real world.

Nearly every military planning exercise is a form of roleplaying.
Psyiachtrists use it to treat patients.
Government agencies use it to exercise stuff like disaster relief.
It´s used as an educational tool for better understanding how things came to be.
All been done all valid and important.

BUT:
This site is about the Method of Roleplay used as a leaisure activity. We call those things RPGs, although we don´t have a monopoly on that term or the method itself.

SO:
Is your project meant as an unsupervised leisure activity?

We only talk about those here. Please clarify.

This may sound "dumb" - but I don't really see any GAME in this at all.

Most people want to have FUN in a game, not experience horror of that kind or feel that they are being preached to about it all.

 The only way I copuld "game" this sort of thing - is if I could KILL the Nazis before the camps started up .  Or better yet - that magic thing a majig from that awful movie MILLENIUM is used to transport all those people to a better safer place in the future.  You don't alter history - but through superscience you save maybe millions of lives.

- Ed C.

Quote from: SettembriniBUT:
This site is about the Method of Roleplay used as a leaisure activity. We call those things RPGs, although we don´t have a monopoly on that term or the method itself.

SO:
Is your project meant as an unsupervised leisure activity?

We only talk about those here. Please clarify.

Maybe it's meant to be art? Since he's getting an art grant from the government to do it?

Maybe he's posting in this forum because he wants to make use of "Theories based on what we know to work, to make new games, new mechanics, new settings, new whatever."

The "whatever" part being the point in question.

Best regards,
Ole Peder