Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckIt sells the most books and has (BY FAR) the largest player base. It has also brought "lapsed" gamers either back into the hobby, or at least back into the "buying D&D books" part of the hobby.

That's what it did for me.

I had essentially stopped gaming for a good many years, apart from an odd Earthdawn campaign.  When 3e came out, it reawakened all of my old fun times gaming.

I started a D&D campaign a week after I got the new PHB, and had 12 players for a while because I didn't want to turn anyone away

-O

Calithena, what are you, Kiero's twin brother or something? "Who's Monte Cook?" said Kiero, as he pretended to be a gamer.

Of course d20 is successful, and so is D&D3.5. Everyone outside the Forge knows that, and even at the Forge they know it but wish it weren't true.

The only way a gamer could seriously believe that d20 and D&D3.5 are unsuccessful is if they never got out to game stores and clubs and groups because were imprisoned in Ron Edwards' basement as playtesters for his games.

Quote from: CalithenaThe ONLY thing that counts as success for my purposes in this thread is creating more butts in seats playing RPGs.

You've defined success...oddly. Taco Bell executive: "We've sold 60 million dollars of our new Deep Fried Crunchy Soft Chalupa." Another Taco Bell executive: "Yes, but did we create a lot of fast food customers? We're not successful if we're selling 60 million dollars to our loyal consumers..."

Seanchai

Quote from: jrientsNew blood in the hobby is very important and pretty much everyone, including Wizards, is doing a half-assed or worse job of it.

But roleplaying games are the easiest of sells to the general public.

Quote from: jrientsI'm much more keen on whether people seem to be actually playing the games, myself.

Yeah, but people playing games won't keep your favorite company in business. What they need is people to buy their games, whether or not they play them. It's sales that drives the industry—because that's what allows your favorite game company to put out their next game line, which hopefully excites the consumer enough to purchase, which hopefully allows the company to put out the next game, and so on.

Seanchai

So Calithena, can you name the RPG that has brought more new players into the hobby than any other?

That had such a huge impact that the overall player demography CHANGED as a result of its presence?

Because, by your definition, it should be the most successful RPG of all time.

I believe that given the criteria put forth in this thread, 3e has been a huge success. This belief is based both on my several years as a book store manager of a large chain book store, as well as the two members of my current gaming group who started rpging with 3e and have never played any previous versions, both of whom are younger than 25.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckD&D 3e is a success by any objective measure you can apply.

It sells the most books and has (BY FAR) the largest player base. It has also brought "lapsed" gamers either back into the hobby, or at least back into the "buying D&D books" part of the hobby.

As far as comparing number of players to the heady days of the early 80's, that's about as fair as wondering why no show on the air now gets ratings like MASH.

There's not three stations anymore, and the options for games have expanded WAY beyond Wargames, TTRPGs or Board Games. We now have way more choices, including console games, MMOs, CCGs and miniatures games, to name just a few.

I think that about sums it up. D&D and D20 are both successful games in their own right by virtually any physically measurable statistic you can use to guage success.

Are they perfect? Of course not.

Are they the BEST games out there? Well that is really a matter for each individual to decide for themselves.

Personally I hold D&D/d20 to be one of my alltime favorites, and many of my other favorite games like True20 and Mutants and Masterminds are derived from the OGL or are at least hevily influenced by D&D such as DragonQuest and Alternity.

If you think D&D/d20 sucks, that is your perogative and your oppinion, but it is silly to keep insisting that the game is completely lacking in quality in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

TO BE FAIR though, I think the same could be said for WOD. It isn't my thing, but I have to acknowledge it for reaching out to new audiences in a way that few games have been able to do since (though according to Pundit these people are somehow causing the collapse of the industry). I also acknowledge WOD for brining in more female players to a hobby that has long been grossly male dominated.

I think the question is poorly phrased.

Has D20 grown the hobby?

Of course not.  It's lured grognards back to buying product and has energised a few existing gamers as well as inspired lots of gamers to buy more stuff but has it brought any new blood into the hobby?

Given that a sizeable chunk of the D20 years coincided with the explosion in popularity of MMORPGs I find that possibility, frankly, laughable.  D20 was all about consolidating an existing market and wringing more money out of it.

In terms of actually getting new people to become gamers then I'd argue that Vampire was the last "successful"RPG.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIn terms of actually getting new people to become gamers then I'd argue that Vampire was the last "successful"RPG.

Ding ding ding!

We have a winnar!

And given that, even though WOD lured MILLIONS of gamers who had never gamed before into the market, and given that many of those gamers never played a game EXCEPT the WOD, and given that WOD *still* couldnt get a larger player base than D&D...

Well, that all adds up to make the OP's criteria of "success" a really bad one.

Not that White Wolf shouldnt be proud of what they accomplished with WOD, especially with making a game that appealed to a new market.

But there's still nothing about being a DISTANT second that translates to being more successful than the game in first place.

Especially since White Wolf has been losing audience for awhile now.

I suspect White Wolf was only successful at bringing people in because their game happened to coincide with the prevailing counterculture fad of the 90s: "the goths".

Those fuckers were everywhere back then. And it was totally like a package deal. you join up, you get some mascara, a cure CD, and a Vampire rulebook, and you were set.

But it was a fad. I (privately) don't think most of those people stayed gamers. I mean, some definitely did. But I think when it came time for these kids to put away their dracula capes and edward scissorhands videotapes, many of them put away their Vampire books right along with them.

Quote from: SeanchaiYeah, but people playing games won't keep your favorite company in business. What they need is people to buy their games, whether or not they play them. It's sales that drives the industry—because that's what allows your favorite game company to put out their next game line, which hopefully excites the consumer enough to purchase, which hopefully allows the company to put out the next game, and so on.

You're making some assumptions about my favorite game company that do not necessarily stand up to scrutiny.  My gut tells me that if S. John Ross sold a million unplayed copies of Fly From Evil he'd find a use for the dough, but he'd also be heartbroken.

More to the point, as much as I love Ross's work and that of several others, I have no obligation to pay the man's bills.  I am of the opinion that the rpg industry exists to service the rpg hobby, not vice versa.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI suspect White Wolf was only successful at bringing people in because their game happened to coincide with the prevailing counterculture fad of the 90s: "the goths".

You're right, but then I think the original iteration of D&D rode in on the geek media boom that began with Star Wars, so the situations are roughly analogous (although D&D was the first rpg and had novelty value in that regard, I would still maintain that would have struggled in a market not softened up by Star Wars). I guess we won't see it again until we see another geek fad cross over.

Ned

Quote from: jrientsI'm much more keen on whether people seem to be actually playing the games, myself.

Based on market research I've seen and anecdotal evidence, by this measure D&D's dominance of the RPG market is even more striking.

There are literally millions of people who play D&D regularly that aren't active customers. Either because they didn't upgrade when a new edition came along, or they've been running their homebrew since the day they got their three 3.0 corebooks and never looked back.

The market research Ryan Dancey did for D&D 3.0 even went so far as to take steps to EXCLUDE active players that weren't active consumers, since they weren't going to cater to those folks.

The fact that we're still having this conversation seven years after D20 came out shows that it succeeded at something.

Quote from: JamesVThe fact that we're still having this conversation seven years after D20 came out shows that it succeeded at something.

Shit stirring?