TheRPGSite

I don't have any experience GMing storygames (just not my type) but to those who have, do you think there is a connection between gender and tendency to prefer either trad RPGs or storygames?

Although there are female gamers, we all wish there were more . Do you think that in an alternate dimension, had Gygax/Arneson invented the storygame (as the first RPG), and if it had taken the place of D&D in terms of financial success and popularity, that there would have been a higher percentage of female gamers than what is presently the case?

I don't have stats to prove it but my hunch (knowing a little bit about how girls think) is that they might actually be more appealed by storygames than the trad games.

I just don't think that girls "dream" (in the RPG sense) as much as guys do and so I don't believe they find the idea of taking on the role of a hero and simulating how it feels to be that person in an alternate world (while simultaneously beating the snot out of orcs and dragons) to be as appealing as it is to men.

So what do you think? Or am I just thinking too hard..?

Quote from: LancerI just don't think that girls "dream" (in the RPG sense) as much as guys do and so I don't believe they find the idea of taking on the role of a hero and simulating how it feels to be that person in an alternate world, to be as appealing as it is to men.

None of my regular gaming groups have ever been all-male, and my experiences on the subject can be summed up very simply: in the end, women play just like men, and the personal preferences of women vary as much as those of men.

Quote from: GrimGentNone of my regular gaming groups have ever been all-male, and my experiences on the subject can be summed up very simply: in the end, women play just like men, and the personal preferences of women vary as much as those of men.

I agree this is true for the relatively few females that actually become gamers, but there must be a reason why so few of them   become gamers (compared to men) to begin with.

So why aren't there more? Would there be more if there were more games to their liking? Is the storygame more "girl-friendly?"

The higher percentage of female gamers in MMORPGS as opposed to other types of CRPGS also seems to suggest that there is such thing as games that appeal to more women than others.

Quote from: LancerI agree this is true for the relatively few females that actually become gamers, but there must be a reason why there are so few of them that  become gamers (compared to men) to begin with.

Roughly a third of all the gamers I've known have been female, so the statistical imbalance honestly isn't pronounced enough to worry me. It seems that general cultural differences are to blame, to a large extent.

In RPGs, there´s about a 1:5 ratio, as many studies have shown.

In storygames it´s way, way lower.
1:500 mayhaps. Storygames is internet based, thusly way more male dominated tha RPGs are.

EDIT: You also shouldn´t talk about gender. Gender is a political fighting term. Sex is the correct word, AFAIK.

Quote from: SettembriniIn RPGs, there´s about a 1:5 ratio, as many studies have shown.

In storygames it´s way, way lower.
1:500 mayhaps. Storygames is internet based, thusly way more male dominated tha RPGs are.

The 1:5 ratio for trad games sounds about right..

I would have never guessed 1:500 for storygames.. Where did you get this info? And how are storygames "internet-based?" I also don't see how males use the Internet much more than females? At least, not where I am from...

Quote from: GrimGentRoughly a third of all the gamers I've known have been female, so the statistical imbalance honestly isn't pronounced enough to worry me. It seems that general cultural differences are to blame, to a large extent.

Perhaps, but when I think of the MMORPG phenomenon, it makes me wonder..

Of course, marketing success may be another factor...

Quote from: Settembrini1:500 mayhaps. Storygames is internet based, thusly way more male dominated tha RPGs are.

Then why does it seem that there are more female designers, like Emily Care Boss and Julia Bond Ellingboe, prominently involved in these indie-oriented "story games" than in so-called "traditional" gaming? Or do they simply fade into the background in the more elaborate productions that require more contributers?

Quote from: GrimGentThen why does it seem that there are more female designers, like Emily Care Boss and Julia Bond Ellingboe, prominently involved in these indie-oriented "story games" than in so-called "traditional" gaming? Or do they simply fade into the background in the more elaborate productions that require more contributers?

Or storygames, since they are still relatively obscure, are just not well-known enough for the average female gamer to be aware of even if a higher percentage of their designers are female.. Heck, most gamers period aren't conscious of them.

In my experience, although many males are involved in "creative writing," I'd say that women dominate that form of artistic expression. Storygames are essentially the roleplaying analogue of "creative writing" , and thus, am not surprised if a proportionately larger number of female designers are involved in their creation...

EDIT: This is essentially why I suspect that many women would react favorably to playing storygames.

Quote from: LancerThis is essentially why I suspect that many women would react favorably to playing storygames.

And yet that doesn't seem to be happening, even in groups that offer equal opportunities for various kinds of gaming: in fact, based solely on the statistics, the high percentage of female LARPers would indicate a notable appreciation for immersion, a staple of "traditional" games. No, I'd have to say that any marketing effort built on sweeping generalizations about "how women think" is doomed to failure.

Quote from: GrimGentAnd yet that doesn't seem to be happening, even in groups that offer equal opportunities for various kinds of gaming:

And that's what I want to find out. For those who have GMed/played both trad games and storygames, and have made an honest attempt at attracting females for both modes of play, do females tend to prefer one over the other?

Quotein fact, based solely on the statistics, the high percentage of female LARPers would indicate a notable appreciation for immersion, a staple of "traditional" games.

The fact that many women (generally) like to "dress up" might actually have a good deal to do with their higher representation in LARPs.

EDIT: And just what kind of LARPS do women like to play usually? Vampire-based ones seem to be the most popular..

In my experience, women tend to be appealed more to Vampire than to D&D, and this holds valid for tabletop as well.

All this suggest that there are certain cases where women do display a certain tendency to prefer certain themes/styles than others (whether culturally-induced or biologically is irrelevant)... Just like men do.

QuoteNo, I'd have to say that any marketing effort built on sweeping generalizations about "how women think" is doomed to failure.

I agree that sweeping generalizations won't work, but carefully educated assumptions might attract more numbers than are presently the case..

For example, MMORPG developers have finally caught on that a major reason why many girls are appealed by MMORPGs is for the "cooperative" style of play along with the "social/chatting" opportunities .
 
That attempts have failed thus far doesn't mean that one day someone won't get it right.

Quote from: LancerAnd that's what I want to find out. For those who have GMed/played both trad games and storygames, and have made an honest attempt at attracting females for both modes of play, do females tend to prefer one over the other?

I had some observations about this in a LJ post a while ago, called Including Women Gamers (http://jhkimrpg.livejournal.com/25212.html).  

The short for is: my local non-D&D-focused conventions were about 1/6 female; both GenCon and the Story Games gatherings that I've been to have been around 1/10 female.  The gatherings that did better were Scandanavian larp conventions at around 1/3 female, and AmberCon NorthWest at 45% female.  Though I think ACNW is exceptional among Amber conventions, so it is not purely to do with the system played.  

So in general, I would say that among tabletop RPGs, women tend away both from D&D and from the current crop of indie story games.  Vampire and other White Wolf games have done relatively well with women, along with others like Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Deadlands.

Quote from: jhkimI had some observations about this in a LJ post a while ago, called Including Women Gamers (http://jhkimrpg.livejournal.com/25212.html).  

The short for is: my local non-D&D-focused conventions were about 1/6 female; both GenCon and the Story Games gatherings that I've been to have been around 1/10 female.  The gatherings that did better were Scandanavian larp conventions at around 1/3 female, and AmberCon NorthWest at 45% female.  Though I think ACNW is exceptional among Amber conventions, so it is not purely to do with the system played.  

So in general, I would say that among tabletop RPGs, women tend away both from D&D and from the current crop of indie story games.  Vampire and other White Wolf games have done relatively well with women, along with others like Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Deadlands.

Very interesting. My own experiences seem to corroborate the observation that women tend to prefer Vampire-based games and games like Buffy. Deadlands, really?  Didn't know..

Your post suggests that it is more a matter of "theme" than "system."

If this is accurate,  I wonder if the low representation of women in storygames (at least in cons) is just a direct result of the relatively low percentage of women gamers in general. Storygames are a niche themselves within a niche hobby, and I wonder how much of it is actually due to simple ignorance. Storygames, after all, are designed dominantly by relatively obscure indie developers.

Quote from: LancerI don't have stats to prove it but my hunch (knowing a little bit about how girls think) is that they might actually be more appealed by storygames than the trad games.

No.

Quote from: LancerI agree this is true for the relatively few females that actually become gamers, but there must be a reason why so few of them become gamers (compared to men) to begin with.

Most people start roleplaying games in high school or at university.

Now think of the guys you knew in your high school or uni game group. Not exactly super-hot.

So, a young woman comes to university, is looking for an interesting hobby to join, looks at the athletics club, the roleplaying club, church group, whatever - the gamer blokes at the ages of 17-21 are about the least appealing, being in poor physical shape, dressing sloppily, staring in lust at every female who drops in, etc.

Because they don't join in at that age, just like males who don't join in at that age, they tend not to join in later.

It's a vicious circle.

Quote from: LancerAnd just what kind of LARPS do women like to play usually? Vampire-based ones seem to be the most popular..

Masquerade and the rest of the WW fare remains popular, yes, and the same is true of generic high fantasy; but all in all the full range of LARP is just about as diverse as the genres of tabletop play, and it doesn't necessarily involve elaborate costumes or special props. For instance, one advantage of mafia-style live-action games is that they can take place out on the streets without alerting public attention.

Quote from: GrimGentMasquerade and the rest of the WW fare remains popular, yes, and the same is true of generic high fantasy; but all in all the full range of LARP is just about as diverse as the genres of tabletop play, and it doesn't necessarily involve elaborate costumes or special props. For instance, one advantage of mafia-style live-action games is that they can take place out on the streets without alerting public attention.

But the point still stands that there are considerably more females that are appealed by Vampire/WW LARPing than mafia game LARPing (or other types of LARPing).

My point is solely is that there are things that women tend to prefer, and the statistics suggest that. Whether or not women would prefer storygames if aware of them, I don't know, but IMHO I do see enough evidence in our hobby to suggest that women are pulled by certain things more then others...
The storygame vs trad game distinction is a hypothesis on my part, but I think the distinction is clear when comparing White Wolf games, LARPing, MMORPGS vs. everything else.

Quote from: LancerBut the point still stands that there are considerably more females that are appealed by Vampire/WW LARPing than mafia game LARPing.

Let's put it this way... There are currently 45 games scheduled on the calendar of the Finnish LARP association SuoLi, and they cover everything from Regency melodrama to space opera. 28 of those are being organized and gamemastered by women.

Quote from: LancerIf this is accurate,  I wonder if the low representation of women in storygames (at least in cons) is just a direct result of the relatively low percentage of women gamers in general. Storygames are a niche themselves within a niche hobby, and I wonder how much of it is actually due to simple ignorance. Storygames, after all, are designed dominantly by relatively obscure indie developers.

As I mentioned, both story games and D&D seem to have lower participation of women than RPGs in general -- at least from my observations.  So I don't think either are derived from the lower average.  I don't have any solid numbers for participation outside of conventions, but my impression from online forums is roughly consistent with what I saw there.

I think theme certainly has some influence, but I suspect system does to.  Both Amber and the Scandanavian larps are very light on mechanics, whereas many story games tend to be more rigid in their mechanics compared, say, to White Wolf games that assume more subjective GM decisions.  

Quote from: Kyle AaronNow think of the guys you knew in your high school or uni game group. Not exactly super-hot.

So, a young woman comes to university, is looking for an interesting hobby to join, looks at the athletics club, the roleplaying club, church group, whatever - the gamer blokes at the ages of 17-21 are about the least appealing, being in poor physical shape, dressing sloppily, staring in lust at every female who drops in, etc.

Because they don't join in at that age, just like males who don't join in at that age, they tend not to join in later.

It's a vicious circle.

Well, it's not like the typical gamer girl is super-hot either.  So if there already is a predominance of boys, then this effect might serve to maintain or exacerbate the situation.  Still, there are other factors causing the initial imbalance, or else it would be just as common for a guy to try to join the group of geeky girls playing.

Quote from: LancerAnd that's what I want to find out. For those who have GMed/played both trad games and storygames, and have made an honest attempt at attracting females for both modes of play, do females tend to prefer one over the other?

Those women that I've known that gamed at all before I met them preferred neither. LARPs and MMOs is where the girls are at.

All this "women are all about artistic expression" is kinda bull IME. Girls want to beat the crap out of a bunch of folks with foam swords, or kill yetis for their pelts, or whatever. But my experience is kind of limited to girls from ages 16 to 20, so... yeah.

EDIT: I'll add that the one girl I know who is into tabletop gaming outside of DnD doesn't do the storygames thing. But then... if we're only going on my experience, story games don't actually exist outside of the internet.

Quote from: GrimGentLet's put it this way... There are currently 45 games scheduled on the calendar of the Finnish LARP association SuoLi, and they cover everything from Regency melodrama to space opera. 28 of those are being organized and gamemastered by women.

One caveat is that one needs to be wary about extrapolating demographics from a very specialized environment filled with hyper-gamers(i.e  conventions, ) and applying it to the hobby at large. Most often these aren't very reflective of the gaming community.
Most gamers, I gather, don't attend (much less gamemaster) conventions. I certainly have yet to go to one myself despite my 15 years in this hobby..

Not to mention I don't know how some of these events were arranged. For instance, the convention hosts may have specifically been targeting female GMs for that event thereby skewing the demographics strongly toward females...28 out of 45 GMs that are female is unbelievably high, even for LARPS! Certainly, in my games, I don't have over 50% females in them (much less GMing) which is what your Finnish LARP demographics seem to suggest.


All this is why I am more interested in finding out what your own personal gaming experiences have been like with female gamers, as opposed to deriving statistics from cons that aren't necessarily representative.

Quote from: LancerOne caveat is that one needs to be wary about extrapolating demographics from a very specialized environment filled with hyper-gamers(i.e  conventions, ) and applying it to the hobby at large.

I specifically excluded the likes of conventions, courses and camps. Those 45 games are all individual events, although sometimes part of long-running campaigns.

(Still, this (http://princeofcairo.livejournal.com/72180.html) is what Kenneth Hite wrote about his trip to a Finnish con back in '06.)

Quote from: jhkimI think theme certainly has some influence, but I suspect system does to.  Both Amber and the Scandanavian larps are very light on mechanics, whereas many story games tend to be more rigid in their mechanics compared, say, to White Wolf games that assume more subjective GM decisions.  

Hmm.. Do you suppose if WW games were more rules-heavy, less women would play them?

QuoteWell, it's not like the typical gamer girl is super-hot either.  .

Hehe... Agreed..Although they are rare, I have actually known a "couple" that are hot, literally. Like drop-dead hot. Thing is that she is geeky too! Imagine that a hot geeky girl!

Quote from: beejazzThose women that I've known that gamed at all before I met them preferred neither. LARPs and MMOs is where the girls are at.

Yeah, this is what I had been noticing.. I am still hoping against hope that a similar trend can be seen in tabletop rpgs aside from just girls like White Wolf games.

QuoteAll this "women are all about artistic expression" is kinda bull IME. Girls want to beat the crap out of a bunch of folks with foam swords, or kill yetis for their pelts, or whatever. But my experience is kind of limited to girls from ages 16 to 20, so... yeah.

Well, it doesn't seem they change much as they get older.. I know quite a few women in their late 20s and early 30s that don't know sh!t about RPGs yet can kick my butt in WoW... Go figure, they are already working on getting yet another character to level 70 (or soon 80).

QuoteEDIT: I'll add that the one girl I know who is into tabletop gaming outside of DnD doesn't do the storygames thing. But then... if we're only going on my experience, story games don't actually exist outside of the internet.

I wasn't even aware of the storygame phenomenon myself until last year when I started joining these RPG forums.

Quote from: LancerI wasn't even aware of the storygame phenomenon myself until last year when I started joining these RPG forums.

...Whereas over here the local library has copies of My Life With Master, Dust Devils, The Shadow of Yesterday and The Mountain Witch, and they seem popular enough.

(Hmm. Primetime Adventures, too, apparently. Hadn't noticed that before.)

Quote from: LancerAll this is why I am more interested in finding out what your own personal gaming experiences have been like with female gamers, as opposed to deriving statistics from cons that aren't necessarily representative.

One caveat is that one needs to be wary about extrapolating demographics from a very specialized environment filled with hyper-gamers(i.e  conventions, ) and applying it to the hobby at large. Most often these aren't very reflective of the gaming community.

Well, I'm glad to share.  However, I don't think anecdotes from people on an online forum like this are going to be any more representative than conventions.  (theRPGsite has almost no women, for one.)  I'm have two main gaming groups (bi-weekly) at the moment, and two less frequent.  The one that I'm GMing currently, which I and my wife and my friend Bill formed, has 5 women and 2 men.  The others are gaming groups that I joined already created.  The bi-weekly Harn game has 5 men, the monthly Call of Cthulhu game has 1 woman (the GM) and 4-5 men, and the irregular GURPS group has 4 men.  

Well, I don't think that conventions are completely representative.  For example, the 1998 WotC survey -- which is the closest thing to real demographic data on gamers since it was based on a random sample of average people -- found 19% women gamers, whereas major conventions have more like 10-15%.  Still, if fewer women attend story game gatherings than attend other conventions, I think it does suggest something.

More fuzzy, anecdotal evidence:

Every female I've ever played with has been an inveterate hack 'n slasher. Whether it be games of political intrigue, social mobility or subtle investigation they all loved tearing the heads off of npc's.

The last girl I gamed with was solely interested in getting into the dungeon and slaughtering whatever crossed her path. It was kind of cool to watch, especially when a couple of the blokes in the group were trying to earn points with her by showing their sensitive sides. She wasn't having any of it, and her attitude helped my Wilderlands game become exactly the kind of Conanesque mayhem I'd originally envisaged. :D

It's mostly a culture thing. My girlfriend and many of the other girls I know were raised to do girly things. They were also raised to not do boy things. Many girls I know were not allowed to do sports in school.

D&D is a "boy game", perhaps Vampire skirted that by not being called D&D.

It's a culture thing...it's changing but it hasn't changed yet. Things are tending to become more gender nuetral.

Quote from: jhkimWell, I'm glad to share.  However, I don't think anecdotes from people on an online forum like this are going to be any more representative than conventions.  (theRPGsite has almost no women, for one.)  I'm have two main gaming groups (bi-weekly) at the moment, and two less frequent.  The one that I'm GMing currently, which I and my wife and my friend Bill formed, has 5 women and 2 men.  The others are gaming groups that I joined already created.  The bi-weekly Harn game has 5 men, the monthly Call of Cthulhu game has 1 woman (the GM) and 4-5 men, and the irregular GURPS group has 4 men.  

Well, I don't think that conventions are completely representative.  For example, the 1998 WotC survey -- which is the closest thing to real demographic data on gamers since it was based on a random sample of average people -- found 19% women gamers, whereas major conventions have more like 10-15%.  Still, if fewer women attend story game gatherings than attend other conventions, I think it does suggest something.

Thanks for sharing your groups' demographics..
Do the women you game with show any tendencies in preferring a style of gameplay over another?

What I find interesting is that your "Gender Disparity in RPGs" article suggests that rule systems (whether they are light or heavy) really don't matter when trying to attract females to the hobby, but now you say that the system does matter. I guess system does matter but not that much?

Quote from: LancerThanks for sharing your groups' demographics..
Do the women you game with show any tendencies in preferring a style of gameplay over another?

It's hard to talk about tendencies in a group this small.  The women in my group tend to be a little more action-oriented than me and Bill, tending to call for more combat.  (Though all of us are pretty far from hack-and-slash.) However, I guess Heather is the only one really interested in mechanics much.  

Quote from: LancerWhat I find interesting is that your "Gender Disparities in RPGs" article suggests that rule systems (whether they are light or heavy) really don't matter when trying to attract females to the hobby, but now you say that the system does matter. I guess system does matter but not that much?

Yes, I think that would be fair to say.  There is a bit of distinction here.  By my way of judging things, Vampire is no more "rules light" than most story games.  However, it has a greater degree of subjective judgement in the rules than a game like, say, My Life With Master.  

So I still see no evidence that women prefer more "rules light" games, as I say in my essay.  However, that doesn't rule out some more subtle differences in system that women might on average prefer.

@jhkim and Drew,

I can somewhat relate to Drew's experiences that quite a few women do LIKE the violence and mayhem that comes with hack n' slash games...

My few experiences with women in MMORPGs seem to support this. Susan, who is normally a creative writer type, gets a blast from mindlessly hacking away enemies in WoW. Though, I suspect that in her case , the hack n' slash is fun as long as she is doing it cooperatively with her team of WoW buddies. She wouldn't play otherwise if solo. Her friends seem to hold a similar philosophy. At least in MMORPGs, girls really dig cooperative play towards a common goal. You would think this would also translate to tabletop more than it has, but I digress...

I had run some virtual tabletop (OpenRPG) adventures with my non-gamer girlfriend and she did seem to enjoy them a lot-- enough so that a lot of angry friends/family members were trying to contact her while she was obliviously lost in our game.. lol. These adventures, however, were more stealth and diplomacy-oriented, with minimal hack n' slash. I have not run a hack n' slash focused game with a female in a long time.. Maybe I should try it on her one of these days to see how she likes it. :)

Anyhow, jhkim's article suggests that women don't like violence much or
only in fair amounts... However, at least in MMORPGs, it looks like some women do like violence as much as males do, as long as it is done as a "team." Drew's anecdotal evidence suggest that some women like violence in tabletop games as well. So maybe women like violence more than we had originally thought?


BTW jhkim, I had read your article (Gender Disparity in RPGs) a couple of years back as well.. I have always thought it was an interesting read. I believe it is the most comprehensive study I have seen on this topic...
Kudos to you, sir.

Quote from: KrakaJakIt's mostly a culture thing. My girlfriend and many of the other girls I know were raised to do girly things. They were also raised to not do boy things. Many girls I know were not allowed to do sports in school.

D&D is a "boy game", perhaps Vampire skirted that by not being called D&D.

It's a culture thing...it's changing but it hasn't changed yet. Things are tending to become more gender nuetral.

KrakaJak, are you from the UK? Because I totally agree with you.

I think a ratio of 1:5 in the UK is astronomically high. My experiece at the 2 or 3 conventions I have attended is 1:20 or 1:50 is more accurate.
I have been playing for what 28 years maybe ... and aside from my Mum who took up D&D and ran a Campaign for 7 years or so after she retired (frustrated writer) and a couple of girls who pretended to be interested in order to get into my pants I have never met a female table top RPGer. I met a couple of girls that played Jyhad (aka VTES) CCG but mainly because their boyfriend/husband played. I woner if those people with partners that play now  think their partners would still play if they gave it up and took up the cello? I suspect there is a % that do it because they want to be involved in a hobby that is so important to their partners and makes up such a big part of their lives.

I run a Murder mystery company as a hobby (I have mentioned this before) and there you have a big interest from women and attractive ones at that as they are all wannabe actresses. The same is true of Amateur Dramatics groups they tend to have most trouble attracting young men in fact and are very woman heavy.

I suspect that the crunch puts of a lot of women. Tactical battlemap type stuff or having remember a load of messy rules. This might be why Larps and games like Amber which are rule light are more popular. And WoW which basically handles the cruch for you. Genre is important as well the vampire stuff has always been appealing to women as well as men where as Conan less so.

At the end of the day I don't think it matters. I don't play games to meet women and if I did my wife would probably give me a right bollocking

I do notice some tendencies and trends; this isn't one of them. Most trends I notice deal with how they make characters.

I will say one thing: I DON'T see women playing noticeably less "fighty" characters, which commonly gets attributed to women.

This is an anecdote; YMMV, etc.

I think you really need to take system out of the equation when you look at the typically male dominated social aspect of the hobby.  I'd bet that women who could be interested in roleplaying would be turned off or threatened by the hobby unless they trusted someone else within the gaming group.  An interest in a game would be largely influenced by the people who introduced them.  Not so different from males, actually, except with the presence of sexual awareness that females are very conscience of.  I've never met a woman who ran a game and I'd think that this is rather typical within the hobby.

Quote from: LancerFor those who have GMed/played both trad games and storygames, and have made an honest attempt at attracting females for both modes of play, do females tend to prefer one over the other?

IME it's got nothing to do with system/playstyle. If there are few women in the hobby it's because guys don't make the effort for a variety of reasons to include them in their games.

Regards,
David R

I don't know that women like less crunch as others have implied here. In any case, no one is as much of a gearhead as I am with games, but to me a gearhead is like a story gamer... they only exist on the internet. Well... except for me... I guess the main difference between a story gamer and a gearhead is that I'm one and not the other?

Aaaanyway, girls like playing cool characters. They want to be a thief and steal shit. They want to be a kenku cook. They want to cave skulls with cloud swords. They don't *obsess* over the mechanics for these things, but I've never seen "Oh, but it's too RULES HEAVY; my delicate female brain is intimidated by the numbers and graph paper!" At least not any worse than the guys I've seen ("Man, tristat is too RULES HEAVY; let's do it in GURPS.")

Quote from: beejazzAaaanyway, girls like playing cool characters. They want to be a thief and steal shit.

Now that you mention it, these are exactly the types of characters my girl likes.

Quote from: LancerNow that you mention it, these are exactly the types of characters my girl likes.

Then again, who doesn't? I know my character choices have always been determined by the concept and the image more than any mechanical consideration except as inspiration, and "cool characters" are very much a major feature of modern gaming: just witness the previews for D&D 4e, not to mention Exalted.

Quote from: jibbajibbaKrakaJak, are you from the UK? Because I totally agree with you.

I think a ratio of 1:5 in the UK is astronomically high. My experiece at the 2 or 3 conventions I have attended is 1:20 or 1:50 is more accurate.
I have been playing for what 28 years maybe ... and aside from my Mum who took up D&D and ran a Campaign for 7 years or so after she retired (frustrated writer) and a couple of girls who pretended to be interested in order to get into my pants I have never met a female table top RPGer. I met a couple of girls that played Jyhad (aka VTES) CCG but mainly because their boyfriend/husband played. I woner if those people with partners that play now  think their partners would still play if they gave it up and took up the cello? I suspect there is a % that do it because they want to be involved in a hobby that is so important to their partners and makes up such a big part of their lives.

I run a Murder mystery company as a hobby (I have mentioned this before) and there you have a big interest from women and attractive ones at that as they are all wannabe actresses. The same is true of Amateur Dramatics groups they tend to have most trouble attracting young men in fact and are very woman heavy.

I suspect that the crunch puts of a lot of women. Tactical battlemap type stuff or having remember a load of messy rules. This might be why Larps and games like Amber which are rule light are more popular. And WoW which basically handles the cruch for you. Genre is important as well the vampire stuff has always been appealing to women as well as men where as Conan less so.

At the end of the day I don't think it matters. I don't play games to meet women and if I did my wife would probably give me a right bollocking

Actually San Diego, California, USofA...

Every girl but a few I've introduced to role-playing (whether they wanted to get in/were in my pants or not) that has enjoyed it, has stuck with it. The point being, RPG's are considered a nerdy and masculine activity, kind of like videogames. Again, there's real girl gamers (as in, girls who game because they enjoy and like gaming), but that's only a recent trend. Just as boys don't play with Barbies, girls didn't play RPGs.

I bet in the long run girls will like the same games as boys, according to their personal taste. I'm sure the majority of female RPG players play D&D.  It's not a genetic predisposition but a cultural condition. Many of the women I've played with tend to be just as violent as the men and could give a crap how complex the game is, as long as it's fun.

...just got back from that local convention this morning (Its easier staying in the Hotel than commuting to it)
These ratios I'm seeing quoted and posted appear to be out-of-date compared to what I actually see in the local region at both conventions and the game store.

What I'm seeing in this part ogf the midwest is closer to 40% women gamers and 60% men gamers....with it drifting to almost 50/50 within the next year or so.

They don't always play the SAME game or RPGs from the same manufacturers - but they are ALL into RPGs in some fashion or another.


- Ed C.

Koltar -- are those %s of people actually playing tabletop games, as opposed to attending the convention and doing things like the costume contest, socializing etc?

I know the LARPing / Cosplay part of a lot of conventions has a lot of women involved -- but I'm not sure if that translates over to the actual gaming tables.

Quote from: LancerDrew's anecdotal evidence suggest that some women like violence in tabletop games as well. So maybe women like violence more than we had originally thought?

I think women can be just as aggressive as men, but are usually discouraged from displaying anger overtly from a very early age. Most games out there actively encourage abstracted forms of aggression that allow players to indulge their more violent tendencies in safe, consequence free environments. Given that the above is true (and I'm only speculating here) it's hardly surprising that some women will be drawn to hack n' slash gaming, in the same way that many disempowered nerdy men are.

There was a quotation in an article on Gygax I read recently where the great one said something like 'Deep down, every man wants to feel like a warrior.' I'd expand that to 'every one.' The pull of playing a righteously violent archetype who can get away with actions we've always (and quite wisely) been inculcated against is powerful indeed. I don't see why women should or would be exempt from this.

Quote from: StuartKoltar -- are those %s of people actually playing tabletop games, as opposed to attending the convention and doing things like the costume contest, socializing etc?

I know the LARPing / Cosplay part of a lot of conventions has a lot of women involved -- but I'm not sure if that translates over to the actual gaming tables.

Nope - I asked them...or checked.
Even the women that were partiucipating in the Masquerade at the con and such had been in an RPG campaign or were looking get into a new one. Heck, I might have gained one or two new players after this past Saturday night.


Also GOT lots of people who said : "Hey!, aren't you the guy that works at  my game store? "  (Yes Iam...)


- ed C.

Quote from: KoltarThese ratios I'm seeing quoted and posted appear to be out-of-date compared to what I actually see in the local region at both conventions and the game store.

What I'm seeing in this part ogf the midwest is closer to 40% women gamers and 60% men gamers....with it drifting to almost 50/50 within the next year or so.

I'm quoting numbers that are pretty recent, but the only Midwest con that I've been to recently was GenCon, which it seemed to me had a lot less than 40% -- I would estimate more like 10 - 15%.  There are certainly regional variations like ACNW's 45%.  

What are the cons you're talking about?

Quote from: jhkimWhat are the cons you're talking about?

Lovecon '08.

Quote from: jhkimI'm quoting numbers that are pretty recent, but the only Midwest con that I've been to recently was GenCon, which it seemed to me had a lot less than 40% -- I would estimate more like 10 - 15%.  There are certainly regional variations like ACNW's 45%.  

What are the cons you're talking about?

MILLENNICON 22 - just last week , GenCon 2007.
Maybe I just hang out at the more interesting parts of Gen Con??


- Ed C.

Indianapolis has a brothel?

Quote from: KoltarMILLENNICON 22 - just last week , GenCon 2007.
Maybe I just hang out at the more interesting parts of Gen Con??

Eh?  I was estimating how many women there were at the con as a whole.  Actually, here's a post I found with info from the exhibitor packet for 2007 (reporting on GenCon 2006).  

http://community.gencon.com/forums/p/8339/95292.aspx#95292

Short form:

QuoteGender          
Male    82%       
Female    18%       
         
Age          
13 to 17    1%       
18 to 24    10%       
25 to 34    38%       
35 to 44    40%       
45 to 54    9%       
55 or over    2%

So 18% is higher than my 10-15% estimate, but lower than your 40%.

My wife, who is a woman, counts HERO, Castle & Crusades, D6 and Fudge among her favorite games.  

Always plays a fighter.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!My wife, who is a woman, counts HERO, Castle & Crusades, D6 and Fudge among her favorite games.  

Always plays a fighter.

Damn.. She sounds hardcore..

You are a lucky man.

Yes.

My own utterly anecdotal experience is that women gamers don't tend to care about system, or adventure, or story so much as they care about characters.

Pretty much every woman gamer I've run into has been quite willing to play any game that involved getting deeply into their character and having the opportunity to interact with the other characters. Fortunately, my games tend on the whole to focus on that a great deal.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditMy own utterly anecdotal experience is that women gamers don't tend to care about system, or adventure, or story so much as they care about characters.

Pretty much every woman gamer I've run into has been quite willing to play any game that involved getting deeply into their character and having the opportunity to interact with the other characters. Fortunately, my games tend on the whole to focus on that a great deal.

RPGPundit

Hmmm.. That does seem to be true in the couple of cases I know of.. And girls seem to really dig "thief" types..

Well, since 1989, I've probably had a ration of close to 75% female gamers in my groups, except the last 2-3 years.

I'll be blunt; we're different. That's just the way it is.

My experience maps in part with Pundit; Women in general, tend care about their characters and interacting with other characters. And they tend to dislike all the bulky rules. And unlike Pundit, most of the women I game with care a whole lot about the story. Women gamers tend to be more about building than confrontation. It's loads of fun and it tends to throw the game in all kinds of direction. Instead of intimidating a local lord and have him stop harassing the villagers, she might try convincing a third party to intervene.

Now, those are stereotypical examples and yes, there are exceptions. And I've met all kinds of male and female gamers. But by and large, I've seen differences. And thinking about it in retrospect, it's certainly no coincidence that I've had such a high ratio of women and that my favorite RPG is Everway. Tweet himself mentions on his website that the game is considered a "chicks-friendly game" and it is kind of true.

And definitly, women are generally more into Vampire and several indie games and lighter designs than in the detailed stuff. And you'll see women designers gravitate towards a certain type of games most of the time. That's just the way it is.  

That's not to say that there are only two big distinct molds, one for men and one for women. But to deny the trends is kind of silly...

QuoteWell, since 1989, I've probably had a ration of close to 75% female gamers in my groups, except the last 2-3 years.

Well, you have certainly been a lucky guy! It also means that you have had a lot of experience in the matter.. Exactly what I am looking for.

Those are very interesting observations Consonant Dude. Your observations that women tend to prefer indirect confrontation via NPCs v.s. direct confrontation is a different way to look at it that I have never thought of before. So would you say, also, that women love to interact with NPCs, in general?

It also makes me want to take a look at "Everway," which I somehow missed.

I would tend to agree that the average female gamer prefers rules-light (and even diceless stuff, few attributes) over crunch.

Now that you mention that women tend to care a whole lot about the story.. In your experience, do womens show any slant towards storygames? Although these games tend to give more freedom in affecting the story, they tend to sacrifice character roleplaying (which is not good since women tend to like to get into their character) and gameplay options.. Since the story/character roleplaying elements tend to cancel each other out in storygames, it may be that women show no overall preference for them.

QuoteAnd definitly, women are generally more into Vampire and several indie games and lighter designs than in the detailed stuff. And you'll see women designers gravitate towards a certain type of games most of the time. That's just the way it is.
That's not to say that there are only two big distinct molds, one for men and one for women. But to deny the trends is kind of silly...

Quoted for truth.

Quote from: LancerWell, you have certainly been a lucky guy! It also means that you have had a lot of experience in the matter..

Oh yes, I feel lucky. Not because I prefer playing with women (my only preference is to play with people I get along well with) but because it allowed me to live different gaming experiences, I think. Before 89 I had been mostly confined with males-only group, with the odd female member occasionally :)

Quote from: LancerThose are very interesting observations Consonant Dude. Your observations that women tend to prefer indirect confrontation via NPCs v.s. direct confrontation is a different way to look at it that I have never thought of before. So would you say, also, that women love to interact with NPCs, in general?

In general, yes. Especially quality NPCs and interaction. If as a GM you provide them with interesting NPCs (and that includes neutral parties but also friends, rivals and of course enemies) you will engage them. Note that, like everything good in life, this somewhat applies to both genders. I mean, most people prefer a quality NPC to a sucky one.

But in general, the many, many women I gamed with tended to like that stuff.

Quote from: LancerIt also makes me want to take a look at "Everway," which I somehow missed.

It's an amazing game, IMO. A milestone in gaming history and well ahead of its time. And although the reasons I like it have nothing to do with female gamers, I'm now contemplating with this thread how much it influenced subsequent events.

At the very least, I know for a fact that Everway facilitated the beginnings of two female GMs that I can remember. Two women who had steadfastly refused to DM/GM anything, under any circumstances and who voluntarily decided to try to do so and chose Everway themselves. That says something to me right there, especially when I know my anecdotal evidence matches with Jonathan Tweet, the creator of said game.

Quote from: LancerI would tend to agree that the average female gamer prefers rules-light (and even diceless stuff, few attributes) over crunch.

Yeah, and I know some people might see it as an attack on women. You know, the old "they not do mathz wery well" attack. But it doesn't have to be that. Just because someone doesn't like to do something during a particular activity (math, crunch, strategy, immersion, interaction, whatever it is and whatever your gender is) doesn't mean that are incapable of doing it. It just means they don't like doing it in this particular context.

Quote from: LancerNow that you mention that women tend to care a whole lot about the story.. In your experience, do womens show any slant towards storygames? Although these games tend to give more freedom in affecting the story, they tend to sacrifice character roleplaying (which is not good since women tend to like to get into their character) and gameplay options.. Since the story/character roleplaying elements tend to cancel each other out in storygames, it may be that women show no overall preference for them.

Here we get in the area of debate where I may or may not get at odds with certain forum members. Because "story", as a word around here, has been demonized.

I think women in general do indeed like immersion. They certainly like being in character and as I said, they like interacting with other characters. And that in itself leads to cool and interesting stories.

There are all sorts of definitions of "story" in the context of gaming, and of "story games". And there's definitly a scale on how "story-gamey" a particular game can be.

Story games as *I* understand it are games where there are specific mechanics and choice you, the player, can affect the unfolding events as opposed to just an avatar. I think those mechanisms can be really cool. I also think all roleplaying games arguably contain some degree of this.

That being said, it's not the only way to get story out of your games. Immersion and interaction will produce stories. Memorable events and the like.

Light mechanics, whether they are story-gamey or not, tend to get out of the way quickly and allow players to resume playing. Which allows more immersion. Most story games are light in nature, which may be why they attract more women playing and designing.

Quote from: Kyle AaronNo.

Most people start roleplaying games in high school or at university.

Now think of the guys you knew in your high school or uni game group. Not exactly super-hot.

So, a young woman comes to university, is looking for an interesting hobby to join, looks at the athletics club, the roleplaying club, church group, whatever - the gamer blokes at the ages of 17-21 are about the least appealing, being in poor physical shape, dressing sloppily, staring in lust at every female who drops in, etc.

Because they don't join in at that age, just like males who don't join in at that age, they tend not to join in later.

It's a vicious circle.

To this I would draw a parallel to the computer industry.   Originally, computers were for Geeks-Of-The-Worst-Kind, the real pen-clip black glasses types with the starched white shirts.   The Cool people would not be caught *Dead* hanging around the Geeks.   And yet, what did the Geeks do over time with computers?   Well, they got smart, and said, how can we make these appeal to The Others.   And so they added cornflower blue shaded icons to everything, and made them fun and appealing, and eventually even sexy.  Now... everyone has a computer, or wants one.  

Could not the same thing be true for RPGs?  My guess:  yes they could.  But it takes thinking about it and working at it and coming up with good answers to questions like this one.  

What makes some girls attracted to some RPGs, and not others?   Excellent question.

As for me, I'm going with the idea that girls are attracted to games that are story-centric... not "Story-Games" as defined by Forge, but traditional style RPGs where the story counts, and is interesting, and the charactes are involved with each other and the world is interesting.   I know that in the games I've played the girls tended to show up at the GM's house where the GM had an interesting world, and was in control of the game, and there were opportunities for immersion.   Don't know how LARPing would fit in, but my hunch is that somehow Immersion is a key component.

I've played a lot of years, and I can say that in that time I've met a large number of gaming men and women--and there are almost no notable differences on the general spectrum that arise from their sex.

Women players vary as much as men players, and often over the exact same things.

Current game groups

Group 1: Renee (f), Cecil (m), Casey (m), Kevin (m), Jeremy (m)
 
Group 2: Jodi (f), September (f), Larry (m), Wes (m), Chris (m), "Chu" (m)


I also have a sister (Jae) I've gamed with regularly until the last couple of years and a niece (Ariana) who plays when I run things for her and her brother.


Never mind all the others brought into groups over the years.