Quote from: KrakaJakIt's mostly a culture thing. My girlfriend and many of the other girls I know were raised to do girly things. They were also raised to not do boy things. Many girls I know were not allowed to do sports in school.

D&D is a "boy game", perhaps Vampire skirted that by not being called D&D.

It's a culture thing...it's changing but it hasn't changed yet. Things are tending to become more gender nuetral.

KrakaJak, are you from the UK? Because I totally agree with you.

I think a ratio of 1:5 in the UK is astronomically high. My experiece at the 2 or 3 conventions I have attended is 1:20 or 1:50 is more accurate.
I have been playing for what 28 years maybe ... and aside from my Mum who took up D&D and ran a Campaign for 7 years or so after she retired (frustrated writer) and a couple of girls who pretended to be interested in order to get into my pants I have never met a female table top RPGer. I met a couple of girls that played Jyhad (aka VTES) CCG but mainly because their boyfriend/husband played. I woner if those people with partners that play now  think their partners would still play if they gave it up and took up the cello? I suspect there is a % that do it because they want to be involved in a hobby that is so important to their partners and makes up such a big part of their lives.

I run a Murder mystery company as a hobby (I have mentioned this before) and there you have a big interest from women and attractive ones at that as they are all wannabe actresses. The same is true of Amateur Dramatics groups they tend to have most trouble attracting young men in fact and are very woman heavy.

I suspect that the crunch puts of a lot of women. Tactical battlemap type stuff or having remember a load of messy rules. This might be why Larps and games like Amber which are rule light are more popular. And WoW which basically handles the cruch for you. Genre is important as well the vampire stuff has always been appealing to women as well as men where as Conan less so.

At the end of the day I don't think it matters. I don't play games to meet women and if I did my wife would probably give me a right bollocking

I do notice some tendencies and trends; this isn't one of them. Most trends I notice deal with how they make characters.

I will say one thing: I DON'T see women playing noticeably less "fighty" characters, which commonly gets attributed to women.

This is an anecdote; YMMV, etc.

I think you really need to take system out of the equation when you look at the typically male dominated social aspect of the hobby.  I'd bet that women who could be interested in roleplaying would be turned off or threatened by the hobby unless they trusted someone else within the gaming group.  An interest in a game would be largely influenced by the people who introduced them.  Not so different from males, actually, except with the presence of sexual awareness that females are very conscience of.  I've never met a woman who ran a game and I'd think that this is rather typical within the hobby.

Quote from: LancerFor those who have GMed/played both trad games and storygames, and have made an honest attempt at attracting females for both modes of play, do females tend to prefer one over the other?

IME it's got nothing to do with system/playstyle. If there are few women in the hobby it's because guys don't make the effort for a variety of reasons to include them in their games.

Regards,
David R

I don't know that women like less crunch as others have implied here. In any case, no one is as much of a gearhead as I am with games, but to me a gearhead is like a story gamer... they only exist on the internet. Well... except for me... I guess the main difference between a story gamer and a gearhead is that I'm one and not the other?

Aaaanyway, girls like playing cool characters. They want to be a thief and steal shit. They want to be a kenku cook. They want to cave skulls with cloud swords. They don't *obsess* over the mechanics for these things, but I've never seen "Oh, but it's too RULES HEAVY; my delicate female brain is intimidated by the numbers and graph paper!" At least not any worse than the guys I've seen ("Man, tristat is too RULES HEAVY; let's do it in GURPS.")

Quote from: beejazzAaaanyway, girls like playing cool characters. They want to be a thief and steal shit.

Now that you mention it, these are exactly the types of characters my girl likes.

Quote from: LancerNow that you mention it, these are exactly the types of characters my girl likes.

Then again, who doesn't? I know my character choices have always been determined by the concept and the image more than any mechanical consideration except as inspiration, and "cool characters" are very much a major feature of modern gaming: just witness the previews for D&D 4e, not to mention Exalted.

Quote from: jibbajibbaKrakaJak, are you from the UK? Because I totally agree with you.

I think a ratio of 1:5 in the UK is astronomically high. My experiece at the 2 or 3 conventions I have attended is 1:20 or 1:50 is more accurate.
I have been playing for what 28 years maybe ... and aside from my Mum who took up D&D and ran a Campaign for 7 years or so after she retired (frustrated writer) and a couple of girls who pretended to be interested in order to get into my pants I have never met a female table top RPGer. I met a couple of girls that played Jyhad (aka VTES) CCG but mainly because their boyfriend/husband played. I woner if those people with partners that play now  think their partners would still play if they gave it up and took up the cello? I suspect there is a % that do it because they want to be involved in a hobby that is so important to their partners and makes up such a big part of their lives.

I run a Murder mystery company as a hobby (I have mentioned this before) and there you have a big interest from women and attractive ones at that as they are all wannabe actresses. The same is true of Amateur Dramatics groups they tend to have most trouble attracting young men in fact and are very woman heavy.

I suspect that the crunch puts of a lot of women. Tactical battlemap type stuff or having remember a load of messy rules. This might be why Larps and games like Amber which are rule light are more popular. And WoW which basically handles the cruch for you. Genre is important as well the vampire stuff has always been appealing to women as well as men where as Conan less so.

At the end of the day I don't think it matters. I don't play games to meet women and if I did my wife would probably give me a right bollocking

Actually San Diego, California, USofA...

Every girl but a few I've introduced to role-playing (whether they wanted to get in/were in my pants or not) that has enjoyed it, has stuck with it. The point being, RPG's are considered a nerdy and masculine activity, kind of like videogames. Again, there's real girl gamers (as in, girls who game because they enjoy and like gaming), but that's only a recent trend. Just as boys don't play with Barbies, girls didn't play RPGs.

I bet in the long run girls will like the same games as boys, according to their personal taste. I'm sure the majority of female RPG players play D&D.  It's not a genetic predisposition but a cultural condition. Many of the women I've played with tend to be just as violent as the men and could give a crap how complex the game is, as long as it's fun.

...just got back from that local convention this morning (Its easier staying in the Hotel than commuting to it)
These ratios I'm seeing quoted and posted appear to be out-of-date compared to what I actually see in the local region at both conventions and the game store.

What I'm seeing in this part ogf the midwest is closer to 40% women gamers and 60% men gamers....with it drifting to almost 50/50 within the next year or so.

They don't always play the SAME game or RPGs from the same manufacturers - but they are ALL into RPGs in some fashion or another.


- Ed C.

Koltar -- are those %s of people actually playing tabletop games, as opposed to attending the convention and doing things like the costume contest, socializing etc?

I know the LARPing / Cosplay part of a lot of conventions has a lot of women involved -- but I'm not sure if that translates over to the actual gaming tables.

Quote from: LancerDrew's anecdotal evidence suggest that some women like violence in tabletop games as well. So maybe women like violence more than we had originally thought?

I think women can be just as aggressive as men, but are usually discouraged from displaying anger overtly from a very early age. Most games out there actively encourage abstracted forms of aggression that allow players to indulge their more violent tendencies in safe, consequence free environments. Given that the above is true (and I'm only speculating here) it's hardly surprising that some women will be drawn to hack n' slash gaming, in the same way that many disempowered nerdy men are.

There was a quotation in an article on Gygax I read recently where the great one said something like 'Deep down, every man wants to feel like a warrior.' I'd expand that to 'every one.' The pull of playing a righteously violent archetype who can get away with actions we've always (and quite wisely) been inculcated against is powerful indeed. I don't see why women should or would be exempt from this.

Quote from: StuartKoltar -- are those %s of people actually playing tabletop games, as opposed to attending the convention and doing things like the costume contest, socializing etc?

I know the LARPing / Cosplay part of a lot of conventions has a lot of women involved -- but I'm not sure if that translates over to the actual gaming tables.

Nope - I asked them...or checked.
Even the women that were partiucipating in the Masquerade at the con and such had been in an RPG campaign or were looking get into a new one. Heck, I might have gained one or two new players after this past Saturday night.


Also GOT lots of people who said : "Hey!, aren't you the guy that works at  my game store? "  (Yes Iam...)


- ed C.

Quote from: KoltarThese ratios I'm seeing quoted and posted appear to be out-of-date compared to what I actually see in the local region at both conventions and the game store.

What I'm seeing in this part ogf the midwest is closer to 40% women gamers and 60% men gamers....with it drifting to almost 50/50 within the next year or so.

I'm quoting numbers that are pretty recent, but the only Midwest con that I've been to recently was GenCon, which it seemed to me had a lot less than 40% -- I would estimate more like 10 - 15%.  There are certainly regional variations like ACNW's 45%.  

What are the cons you're talking about?

Quote from: jhkimWhat are the cons you're talking about?

Lovecon '08.

Quote from: jhkimI'm quoting numbers that are pretty recent, but the only Midwest con that I've been to recently was GenCon, which it seemed to me had a lot less than 40% -- I would estimate more like 10 - 15%.  There are certainly regional variations like ACNW's 45%.  

What are the cons you're talking about?

MILLENNICON 22 - just last week , GenCon 2007.
Maybe I just hang out at the more interesting parts of Gen Con??


- Ed C.