I don't have any experience GMing storygames (just not my type) but to those who have, do you think there is a connection between gender and tendency to prefer either trad RPGs or storygames?

Although there are female gamers, we all wish there were more . Do you think that in an alternate dimension, had Gygax/Arneson invented the storygame (as the first RPG), and if it had taken the place of D&D in terms of financial success and popularity, that there would have been a higher percentage of female gamers than what is presently the case?

I don't have stats to prove it but my hunch (knowing a little bit about how girls think) is that they might actually be more appealed by storygames than the trad games.

I just don't think that girls "dream" (in the RPG sense) as much as guys do and so I don't believe they find the idea of taking on the role of a hero and simulating how it feels to be that person in an alternate world (while simultaneously beating the snot out of orcs and dragons) to be as appealing as it is to men.

So what do you think? Or am I just thinking too hard..?

Quote from: LancerI just don't think that girls "dream" (in the RPG sense) as much as guys do and so I don't believe they find the idea of taking on the role of a hero and simulating how it feels to be that person in an alternate world, to be as appealing as it is to men.

None of my regular gaming groups have ever been all-male, and my experiences on the subject can be summed up very simply: in the end, women play just like men, and the personal preferences of women vary as much as those of men.

Quote from: GrimGentNone of my regular gaming groups have ever been all-male, and my experiences on the subject can be summed up very simply: in the end, women play just like men, and the personal preferences of women vary as much as those of men.

I agree this is true for the relatively few females that actually become gamers, but there must be a reason why so few of them   become gamers (compared to men) to begin with.

So why aren't there more? Would there be more if there were more games to their liking? Is the storygame more "girl-friendly?"

The higher percentage of female gamers in MMORPGS as opposed to other types of CRPGS also seems to suggest that there is such thing as games that appeal to more women than others.

Quote from: LancerI agree this is true for the relatively few females that actually become gamers, but there must be a reason why there are so few of them that  become gamers (compared to men) to begin with.

Roughly a third of all the gamers I've known have been female, so the statistical imbalance honestly isn't pronounced enough to worry me. It seems that general cultural differences are to blame, to a large extent.

In RPGs, there´s about a 1:5 ratio, as many studies have shown.

In storygames it´s way, way lower.
1:500 mayhaps. Storygames is internet based, thusly way more male dominated tha RPGs are.

EDIT: You also shouldn´t talk about gender. Gender is a political fighting term. Sex is the correct word, AFAIK.

Quote from: SettembriniIn RPGs, there´s about a 1:5 ratio, as many studies have shown.

In storygames it´s way, way lower.
1:500 mayhaps. Storygames is internet based, thusly way more male dominated tha RPGs are.

The 1:5 ratio for trad games sounds about right..

I would have never guessed 1:500 for storygames.. Where did you get this info? And how are storygames "internet-based?" I also don't see how males use the Internet much more than females? At least, not where I am from...

Quote from: GrimGentRoughly a third of all the gamers I've known have been female, so the statistical imbalance honestly isn't pronounced enough to worry me. It seems that general cultural differences are to blame, to a large extent.

Perhaps, but when I think of the MMORPG phenomenon, it makes me wonder..

Of course, marketing success may be another factor...

Quote from: Settembrini1:500 mayhaps. Storygames is internet based, thusly way more male dominated tha RPGs are.

Then why does it seem that there are more female designers, like Emily Care Boss and Julia Bond Ellingboe, prominently involved in these indie-oriented "story games" than in so-called "traditional" gaming? Or do they simply fade into the background in the more elaborate productions that require more contributers?

Quote from: GrimGentThen why does it seem that there are more female designers, like Emily Care Boss and Julia Bond Ellingboe, prominently involved in these indie-oriented "story games" than in so-called "traditional" gaming? Or do they simply fade into the background in the more elaborate productions that require more contributers?

Or storygames, since they are still relatively obscure, are just not well-known enough for the average female gamer to be aware of even if a higher percentage of their designers are female.. Heck, most gamers period aren't conscious of them.

In my experience, although many males are involved in "creative writing," I'd say that women dominate that form of artistic expression. Storygames are essentially the roleplaying analogue of "creative writing" , and thus, am not surprised if a proportionately larger number of female designers are involved in their creation...

EDIT: This is essentially why I suspect that many women would react favorably to playing storygames.

Quote from: LancerThis is essentially why I suspect that many women would react favorably to playing storygames.

And yet that doesn't seem to be happening, even in groups that offer equal opportunities for various kinds of gaming: in fact, based solely on the statistics, the high percentage of female LARPers would indicate a notable appreciation for immersion, a staple of "traditional" games. No, I'd have to say that any marketing effort built on sweeping generalizations about "how women think" is doomed to failure.

Quote from: GrimGentAnd yet that doesn't seem to be happening, even in groups that offer equal opportunities for various kinds of gaming:

And that's what I want to find out. For those who have GMed/played both trad games and storygames, and have made an honest attempt at attracting females for both modes of play, do females tend to prefer one over the other?

Quotein fact, based solely on the statistics, the high percentage of female LARPers would indicate a notable appreciation for immersion, a staple of "traditional" games.

The fact that many women (generally) like to "dress up" might actually have a good deal to do with their higher representation in LARPs.

EDIT: And just what kind of LARPS do women like to play usually? Vampire-based ones seem to be the most popular..

In my experience, women tend to be appealed more to Vampire than to D&D, and this holds valid for tabletop as well.

All this suggest that there are certain cases where women do display a certain tendency to prefer certain themes/styles than others (whether culturally-induced or biologically is irrelevant)... Just like men do.

QuoteNo, I'd have to say that any marketing effort built on sweeping generalizations about "how women think" is doomed to failure.

I agree that sweeping generalizations won't work, but carefully educated assumptions might attract more numbers than are presently the case..

For example, MMORPG developers have finally caught on that a major reason why many girls are appealed by MMORPGs is for the "cooperative" style of play along with the "social/chatting" opportunities .
 
That attempts have failed thus far doesn't mean that one day someone won't get it right.

Quote from: LancerAnd that's what I want to find out. For those who have GMed/played both trad games and storygames, and have made an honest attempt at attracting females for both modes of play, do females tend to prefer one over the other?

I had some observations about this in a LJ post a while ago, called Including Women Gamers.  

The short for is: my local non-D&D-focused conventions were about 1/6 female; both GenCon and the Story Games gatherings that I've been to have been around 1/10 female.  The gatherings that did better were Scandanavian larp conventions at around 1/3 female, and AmberCon NorthWest at 45% female.  Though I think ACNW is exceptional among Amber conventions, so it is not purely to do with the system played.  

So in general, I would say that among tabletop RPGs, women tend away both from D&D and from the current crop of indie story games.  Vampire and other White Wolf games have done relatively well with women, along with others like Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Deadlands.

Quote from: jhkimI had some observations about this in a LJ post a while ago, called Including Women Gamers.  

The short for is: my local non-D&D-focused conventions were about 1/6 female; both GenCon and the Story Games gatherings that I've been to have been around 1/10 female.  The gatherings that did better were Scandanavian larp conventions at around 1/3 female, and AmberCon NorthWest at 45% female.  Though I think ACNW is exceptional among Amber conventions, so it is not purely to do with the system played.  

So in general, I would say that among tabletop RPGs, women tend away both from D&D and from the current crop of indie story games.  Vampire and other White Wolf games have done relatively well with women, along with others like Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Deadlands.

Very interesting. My own experiences seem to corroborate the observation that women tend to prefer Vampire-based games and games like Buffy. Deadlands, really?  Didn't know..

Your post suggests that it is more a matter of "theme" than "system."

If this is accurate,  I wonder if the low representation of women in storygames (at least in cons) is just a direct result of the relatively low percentage of women gamers in general. Storygames are a niche themselves within a niche hobby, and I wonder how much of it is actually due to simple ignorance. Storygames, after all, are designed dominantly by relatively obscure indie developers.

Quote from: LancerI don't have stats to prove it but my hunch (knowing a little bit about how girls think) is that they might actually be more appealed by storygames than the trad games.

No.

Quote from: LancerI agree this is true for the relatively few females that actually become gamers, but there must be a reason why so few of them become gamers (compared to men) to begin with.

Most people start roleplaying games in high school or at university.

Now think of the guys you knew in your high school or uni game group. Not exactly super-hot.

So, a young woman comes to university, is looking for an interesting hobby to join, looks at the athletics club, the roleplaying club, church group, whatever - the gamer blokes at the ages of 17-21 are about the least appealing, being in poor physical shape, dressing sloppily, staring in lust at every female who drops in, etc.

Because they don't join in at that age, just like males who don't join in at that age, they tend not to join in later.

It's a vicious circle.

Quote from: LancerAnd just what kind of LARPS do women like to play usually? Vampire-based ones seem to be the most popular..

Masquerade and the rest of the WW fare remains popular, yes, and the same is true of generic high fantasy; but all in all the full range of LARP is just about as diverse as the genres of tabletop play, and it doesn't necessarily involve elaborate costumes or special props. For instance, one advantage of mafia-style live-action games is that they can take place out on the streets without alerting public attention.