So, I'm working on designing a little game that takes place in the US during the 20s and 30s and I was wondering what people thought about which type of firearms to include, and how to rank them.

Actually, model isn't the right terminology.  I don't want to use specific gun models, just generic archetypes based on caliber.  And because of the setting, I'll only focus on US type weapons (e.g., no 9mm because it wasn't popular in the US then).

Let's start with revolvers.  The most common of the day would have been the .38 Special, as it was used by pretty much every law enforcement agency.  But what other revolvers make sense to add?  The .44 special would have been around, so I probably want it.  The older .38 Long Colt and .32 Long revolvers were the old military and police revolvers, respectively.  They'd be old, but could still be found.  Does it make sense to include them?  And what about the .45 Long, the quintessential cowboy gun?  I'm also not sure whether its worth the bother to include the .22 revolver.  Finally, there's the .357 to consider - it would barely make the timeline, and its really a next-generation weapon in terms of performance.

Pistols seem a little more straight-forward.  There's the little .25, the slightly bigger .32, the medium .380, and the military .45.  Does it make sense to have both the .32 and the .380, though?  And what about the .38 Super?  It's never been an overly popular weapon.

So, if we tried to rank handguns from weakest to most powerful (damage-wise, but taking into account "accuracy" of the gun as a component of damage), would it look like something like this?:

.22 revolver / .25 pistol
.32 long revolver / .32 pistol
.38 long revolver / .380 pistol
.38 special revolver
.44 special revolver / .45 long revolver / .38 Super pistol
.45 pistol
.357 Magnum revolver

I suppose I should include a Derringer weapon as well.  Perhaps rank it with the .22 revolver/.25 pistol?


Now, for shotguns I was pretty much thinking of sticking to the 12 gauge (with options for auto, pump, or double-barrel).  I suppose maybe I could add a 10 gauge, but is there really that much difference in power?  I've never been very comfortable with where they fit in damage-wise.  A lot of games make shotguns really powerful, but I'm not sure that makes sense.  Particularly when the weaker ones - like a 20 gauge or a .410, sound about as effective as a .32 or a .25 pistol, respectively.  Anyone have thoughts on that?

There's really only one submachine gun of the period, the .45 thompson.

Finally, there are rifles.  Out of the many, many, many different calibers, I was thinking of having just the .30-06 as a military rifle (both the bolt action and the BAR versions) and the .30-30 lever action as a deer rifle.  Other options could be a .44-40 for an older style rifle (not sure if it would be better, worse, or equivalent to the .30-30, though) and the traditional .22 as a light rifle.  I also considered adding the .450 elephant gun, but then that would go against my "no European weapons" philosophy.

Thoughts?

Quote from: jgants;297464So, I'm working on designing a little game that takes place in the US during the 20s and 30s and I was wondering what people thought about which type of firearms to include, and how to rank them.

Actually, model isn't the right terminology.  I don't want to use specific gun models, just generic archetypes based on caliber.  And because of the setting, I'll only focus on US type weapons (e.g., no 9mm because it wasn't popular in the US then).

Let's start with revolvers.  The most common of the day would have been the .38 Special, as it was used by pretty much every law enforcement agency.  But what other revolvers make sense to add?  The .44 special would have been around, so I probably want it.  The older .38 Long Colt and .32 Long revolvers were the old military and police revolvers, respectively.  They'd be old, but could still be found.  Does it make sense to include them?  And what about the .45 Long, the quintessential cowboy gun?  I'm also not sure whether its worth the bother to include the .22 revolver.  Finally, there's the .357 to consider - it would barely make the timeline, and its really a next-generation weapon in terms of performance.

Pistols seem a little more straight-forward.  There's the little .25, the slightly bigger .32, the medium .380, and the military .45.  Does it make sense to have both the .32 and the .380, though?  And what about the .38 Super?  It's never been an overly popular weapon.

So, if we tried to rank handguns from weakest to most powerful (damage-wise, but taking into account "accuracy" of the gun as a component of damage), would it look like something like this?:

.22 revolver / .25 pistol
.32 long revolver / .32 pistol
.38 long revolver / .380 pistol
.38 special revolver
.44 special revolver / .45 long revolver / .38 Super pistol
.45 pistol
.357 Magnum revolver

I suppose I should include a Derringer weapon as well.  Perhaps rank it with the .22 revolver/.25 pistol?


Now, for shotguns I was pretty much thinking of sticking to the 12 gauge (with options for auto, pump, or double-barrel).  I suppose maybe I could add a 10 gauge, but is there really that much difference in power?  I've never been very comfortable with where they fit in damage-wise.  A lot of games make shotguns really powerful, but I'm not sure that makes sense.  Particularly when the weaker ones - like a 20 gauge or a .410, sound about as effective as a .32 or a .25 pistol, respectively.  Anyone have thoughts on that?

There's really only one submachine gun of the period, the .45 thompson.

Finally, there are rifles.  Out of the many, many, many different calibers, I was thinking of having just the .30-06 as a military rifle (both the bolt action and the BAR versions) and the .30-30 lever action as a deer rifle.  Other options could be a .44-40 for an older style rifle (not sure if it would be better, worse, or equivalent to the .30-30, though) and the traditional .22 as a light rifle.  I also considered adding the .450 elephant gun, but then that would go against my "no European weapons" philosophy.

Thoughts?

I think you covered all the major american calibers of the time. I dont agree with your no european stuff. As I think while not readily availble, was still could be gotten. (kind of like 5.45x39mm nowadays)

It totally makes sense to have .32 and .380. They are completely different class cartridges. .32 isnt very powerful. But much more so that .25, .22LR. While .380 is almost on par with 9mm, .38 spec.
Derringers are small and short ranged for certain. But typically were and are chambered for a decent sized cartridge. .44 special, .38 special would all be appropraite.
I like your table here of equivalent power,
.22 revolver / .25 pistol
.32 long revolver / .32 pistol
.38 long revolver / .380 pistol
.38 special revolver
.44 special revolver / .45 long revolver / .38 Super pistol
.45 pistol
.357 Magnum revolver

Now on the topic of shotguns. They can be a sticky wicket because there are so many things that can effect, well every thing. Type of shot shell, the choke of the barrel, the guage. To simplfy things really shotguns are all about the same power level. The lower the guage the bigger the shell the more lead projectiles they carry. So a 00buck 12guage holds say 6 pellets, while a 10 guage 00 buck shell hold 9 pellets. Reguardless of guage, each pellet is about the ballistic equivalent to a .38 special. Shot spreads at range. So up close at a range of 10 yards the patten will only spread maybe to the size of your fist. So you would effectively slam the target with the equivalent of 6 .38 rounds at once. But at longer ranges the pattern spreads out. Giving a better chance to hit. But with less pellets. The target may only be hit by 2 or 3 pellets.

With the rifles I think you made some good generic choices I would add .45-70 to the calibers. It is more powerful than .30-30. or .30-06. So it could be your "big american" caliber rifle.

Oh and I totally dig the time period you are talking about. I would love to check out your finished product. (or the beta of said product.)

I know there are reprints of Sears, Montgomery Ward etc. catalogs for near the period (1890-1910+), if not 20s & 30s. Maybe a local library will have them or if not one shouldn't cost that much. Not only do you get prices but loads of illustrations & ad copy. By comparing info, size and presentation of listing they could help get a feel for contemporary views. I remember quite a range of ammunition and even with caliber several choices of brands.

Looks like you're covering the biggies. Will check on non-US stuff but I seem to recall it for sale in the reprint catalogs I have.

Don't forget the Tommy Gun, you can't do 20/30's without having a Tommy Gun.

Quote from: kryyst;297871Don't forget the Tommy Gun, you can't do 20/30's without having a Tommy Gun.

Yep, I had it in the list.  That's the .45 Thompson.  

Found my 1908 Sears catalog reprint. Off a few years but still...

Neat Factoid: Sears had its own firearms factory, in Meriden, CT, Meriden Fire Arms Company.

Shotguns: leads off with a 12 gauge, 30-32" barrels double barrel hammerless breach loading. Some have hammers, most are 12 gauge, some 10, a few 16. 30 seems the standard barrel length. Sears sold 8,10,12,16 and 20 gauge shells. I couldn't find any sold shotgun that used 20 gauge. Shells can't be sent COD.

Rifles: most 22 rimfire, repeaters are often 32/32-40. There are some 45-70 Springfields that look like old government surplus to me. Sears bought Swiss Vetterli repeating rifles, 6 shot bolt action 41-caliber for big game. I think it's one of the later "improved" versions of this. I doubt you need to include air rifles.

Revolvers: 32 or 38 centerfire 5 shot revolvers to start off. A couple of 22s, a few target, tipup or derringers. Then lots of Colts. 44 frontier revolvers, 38 and 41 1892 army & navy. A 32. Some 6 or 7 shots. Some rim fire. I doubt you'll distinguish between single and double action?

Automatics: Very few. Colt 32 9 shot or 38 8 shot. Luger 30 8 shot.

Rifle & Pistol Ammo: Can't be mailed! Rim fire: 22, 25, 32, 41 (derringer), 44, 56-50, 56-52. Central fire: 25-20, 25-35, 25-36, 30, 30-30, 303, 32 (& rev.), 32-20 (repeating rifles), 32-40, 38 (& rev.), 38-40, 38-55, 351, 41, 44-40 (repeating rifles), 45 revolver

Foreign: Those Swiss rifles for big game and Luger automatics. Post-WWI I'd bet there'd be a lot of surplus firearms in circulation though how much wound in the US of foreign make I've no idea. I bet it went more South America, Central & Eastern Europe, Russia and China.

Still those damn French LMGs have to go somewhere! >_<

I'm edumacated guessing that most of the oddball repeating calibers aren't in regular or even castoff use by the 1920s & 1930s.

If you have the Tommy Gun, perhaps also the BAR? Same period, same surplus. Looks real intimidating in a thug or PC's hands.

Quote from: Casey777;297971Foreign: Those Swiss rifles for big game and Luger automatics. Post-WWI I'd bet there'd be a lot of surplus firearms in circulation though how much wound in the US of foreign make I've no idea. I bet it went more South America, Central & Eastern Europe, Russia and China.

Many countries adopted rifles like the 1898 Mauser, or even produced their our versions. So that is totally on target.
The Belgians and Czechs produced and exported widely their 'Mausers' in various calibers throughout the 20s and 30s, before their production facilities were absorbed by the conquering Nazi Germany and used to produce parts or whole rifles for the German army

Quote from: Casey777;297971Stillthose damn French LMGs have to go somewhere! >_<

God, hopefully the scrap yard. Jamming peice of shit.

Quote from: Casey777;297971If you have the Tommy Gun, perhaps also the BAR? Same period, same surplus. Looks real intimidating in a thug or PC's hands.

Little factoid. Gangsters and criminals actually preffered the BAR to the Thompson. The Thompson was popular in the movies, where as the BAR was in real life. The BAR was typically procured by robbing national guard armories. Theres an adventure hook for your characters.

Now onto Montgomery Ward 1894-95. Will only note differences from Sears 1908 catalog above. Much smaller font size, slim catalog.

Shotguns: Has 3 pump action models, Sears had none. Also at least one 20 gauge model, maybe I just missed it in Sears which has a lot of entries. Have W.W. Greener ejector models from England. 10 to 40 times as much as a cheap shotgun. One Belgian, priced the same as a US gun and some that either use some foreign parts or a foreign-designed part (not sure if made in the US but assume so).

Rifles & Revolvers: Some calibers in 40, some 45 rifles.

Ok, Sears in 1908 had an exclusive contract to import in W.W. Greener acting and locking mechanisms and sold them in Greener Action guns. $11.75 as opposed to $200-500 for an imported actual W.W. Greener gun. At the time Greener did not (and evidently never had) build guns for the American market.

I suspect this wasn't the only gun to have imported key parts in an otherwise local-made firearm. This would help explain the named action guns found in both catalogs. Allows promotion of a brand, keeps costs down (ensuring sales) and means more (likely already in production) parts made locally.

tl;dr some premier, surplus or highly sought after foreign firearms but not many. And even then more likely to have something like the above Greener Action than an actual 100% foreign made model.

'nuff for now, will check back later.

Quote from: Ronin;297973Little factoid. Gangsters and criminals actually preffered the BAR to the Thompson. The Thompson was popular in the movies, where as the BAR was in real life. The BAR was typically procured by robbing national guard armories. Theres an adventure hook for your characters.

Yep.  The Thompson has a distinct look (particularly with the drum), which is why they always use it for movies.

The BAR was preferred because it used the spitzer .30-06 round, making it much better for penetration (versus the Thompson's flat, wider, slower cartridge), which comes in handy when robbing armored cars or surviving shoot-outs with police.  Of course, some law enforcement agencies used them as well, like when they used them to gun down Bonnie and Clyde in their car.

Clyde Barrow actually used several sawed-off BARs, making them into more of a submachine gun (not to mention his equally scary sawed-off auto shotgun).

That's a lot of interesting stuff, Casey.  Thanks for looking into it.

Quote from: jgants;298016Clyde Barrow actually used several sawed-off BARs, making them into more of a submachine gun (not to mention his equally scary sawed-off auto shotgun).

Not sure I'd call that s sub-machinegun -- the vent to the gas piston is about 8 inches from the end of the barrel, so you still have 40 inches of firearm. If you saw any more off it won't work. I guess you could saw the stock off too, but banging away with a short barrelled stockless 7.62 full auto rifle is likely to be pretty uncontrolled. Scary as hell though.

Quote from: jgants;297955Yep, I had it in the list.  That's the .45 Thompson.  

Actually, that should be .45 ACP, as that's what it's called, thanks to it being the cartridge of the Colt M1911 semi-automatic pistol, which is plenty contemporary to the 20s and 30s and should be included as well.  The Thompson just used the same cartridge because the .45 ACP was already in use as the standard sidearm cartridge by that time.  

The other Colts, the 1903 and 1908 in .32 ACP and .380 ACP respectively are also important developments, and were in wide use and availability in the civvie world.

This site here has some good info on the old Colt autoguns:  http://www.coltautos.com/