Quote from: James J SkachI'm more ragging on the implication that Mr. Johansen seems to be shoveling.  It's the elitist "D&D is so bland.  Yes I know alot of people choose it and play it, but there's no accounting for taste! People enjoy bland - the plebes."

David gets to say this because he's produced some really amazing work--amazing as in "CoC Dreamlands on acid." Not to say that D&D is all bland. "D&D" does not exist. The Realms and Arduin are worlds apart (pun intended). David is more of an Arduin guy.

Quote from: balzacqI know I'm late to this party, but your examples prove the point: every DitV scenario must be about religious enforcers dealing with a town. There doesn't seem to be any way to handle, say, deciding to go be silver miners or run away to sea -- not and continue being the same game.

Hence my comparison to Toon.  You can't choose Toon as your ruleset, then decide to play soldiers in a grim and fatal storming of Omaha Beach.  I don't view either of those as railroading.

Actually you can choose Toon and play it as "Tom and Jerry pvp", then turn around again, and run it as a Warner Brothers "Adventuring party of toons vs evil plot" (say a haunted house or a Yosemite Sam type villian) type thing, (the example adventures are mostly Warner Brothers classics) and then turn around, and play it as a Yellow Submarine-like quest.

We did all kinds of things with Toon in college. It's basicly wide open as far as what you can do with it- it's just a resolution system with a skill system and powers ("Schticks") tacked on.

As a player, couldn't I decide my cowboy wasn't going to put up with the corruption of the other Dogs in the Vineyard?  Maybe he'd decide to defend the townsfolk from the Inquisitors... for a Fistful of Dollars.

Isn't that an option?

Quote from: TonyLBYou can't choose Toon as your ruleset, then decide to play soldiers in a grim and fatal storming of Omaha Beach.

http://onastick.net/sitz/images/?

Quote from: TonyLBHence my comparison to Toon.  You can't choose Toon as your ruleset, then decide to play soldiers in a grim and fatal storming of Omaha Beach.  I don't view either of those as railroading.

"[C]onstraining the types of play or situations the game will support" != "railroading".

and if you take the stance that a given game is more like a module with some rules attached than an RPG..........:confused:

Quote from: balzacq"[C]onstraining the types of play or situations the game will support" != "railroading".

I agree.  MCrow, back in #126 said that he felt the game was "like one giant railroad."  I disagree with that, for pretty much exactly the reasons you're saying.  DitV does constrain the types of play or situations the game will support, just like Toon, Paranoia and many other narrowly focussed games.  That doesn't mean it's disempowering the players ... it means that you choose the game when you want that narrow focus.

Quote from: Mcrowand if you take the stance that a given game is more like a module with some rules attached than an RPG..........:confused:

Who, me? I have no problem defining these indie games as "role-playing games". They are, in fact, games, in which the players' primary activity involves playing a role through a fictional character in an imaginary world*; as opposed to card games or board games or sporting games.

But again, "what is an RPG" or "is game x an RPG" is a red herring and irrelevant to the OP's thesis about GM disempowerment vis-a-vis player empowerment in certain indie games.



* Not intended as an all-inclusive definition of RPGs.

I don't think the issue is that it disempowers anyone.

The issue is that it tells the same story every session.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI don't think the issue is that it disempowers anyone.

The issue is that it tells the same story every session.

thats my main gripe in a nutshell.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI don't think the issue is that it disempowers anyone.

The issue is that it tells the same story every session.

As someone said upthread, couldn't the same be said of CoC?  That also has a strong core narrative after all.

Quote from: Abyssal MawThe issue is that it tells the same story every session.

Well, like I said, I've had outcomes (even from the same town, run with two different groups) that looked fairly substantially different to me.  But everyone's going to have their own standards for what it takes before two stories are different from each other.

If, for you, every story of outsiders passing judgment on the troubles of a close-knit community is the same story, then DitV is only going to provide that story.  Me, I figure that definition includes a gamut stories from Blazing Saddles to Seven Samurai, and many of them are very different from each other.

Quote from: BalbinusAs someone said upthread, couldn't the same be said of CoC?  That also has a strong core narrative after all.

As a matter of fact, yes, the same would apply to CoC.

Just to point out, that it does not mean the game can't be fun, but the replay value isn't going to be that good for most people.

Quote from: TonyLBThat doesn't mean it's disempowering the players ... it means that you choose the game when you want that narrow focus.

Here, I think, is where you (and others) and the OP (and others) are talking past each other.

To paraphrase, the OP says: "In order to redress the GM/player power imbalance, certain indie games restrict the freedom of the GM by restricting the game to certain stereotyped situations as opposed to truly empowering the players."

You say: "I can choose the game I want to run, and if it has a narrow focus then that's just the game."

I don't think you're addressing his argument at all. It's roughly equivalent to:

A: "Certain types of fashion statement are less becoming to certain body types."
B: "I like shoes."

So: do you in fact think that game-restricted situations or types of play represent disempowerment of the GM by the designer, and do you think that a published or hypothetical game that instead empowered the players without limiting the GM's freedom in this way would be better or worse, and what might such a game look like?

That's what we should be discussing.