Quote from: gleichmanTo reference the market if you must provides one answer. D&D current rules it with moderate to strong niche protection leaving you as the one out of step.

Perhaps you are unaware D&D has been beating feet for the last 3 major editions (if you count 4e and don't count 3.5e as a major) and two decades to thwart it's own initial niche protection. Selling a pile of splat books along the way.

Quote from: blakkieD&D has been beating feet for the last 3 major editions and two decades to thwart it's own initial niche protection. Selling a pile of splat books along the way.

To thwart it's own?

Hardly, to me it's indicated a move from Strong to Moderate niche protection. Niche protection that in turn inspires the sales of splat books making money along the way. If anything it's making the best possible use out of niches.

It's a bit awkward having the same conversation in 2 places (and apologies to Spike, if your thread has been hijacked somewhat! ).

Yeah, the little bits of info from 4e suggests that skills, at least, have been opened up to everyone. However, class specific abilities are still there (although, from first glance, they appear to be little more than variations on how to damage things).

It is still a strong niche protection game - the difference is that now, the basis seems to have changed to a specific niche within combat.

Subject to later info discrediting that comment.

Quote from: gleichmanTo thwart it's own?

Hardly, to me it's indicated a move from Strong to Moderate niche protection.

:rolleyes:

QuoteNiche protection that in turn inspires the sales of splat books making money along the way. If anything it's making the best possible use out of niches.

Yes, they work hard to sell books to thwart it. Because of the vast number of people that when they come face to face with it think it stinks. Hinterwelt, to his credit, seems to be more about selling someone the game they want right out of the gate.

Quote from: blakkie:rolleyes:

Yes, they work hard to sell books to thwart it. Because of the vast number of people that think it stinks. Hinterwelt, to his credit, seems to be more about selling someone what they want right out of the gate.

Selling Splat books doesn't thwart niche protection, it enhances it by offering additional niches which are fun and exciting. An approach that market wise seems to be the most successful by far.

HinterWelt so nailed it.

EDIT: I can't shake the feeling that it's like you haven't actually played the game muchless the supplements?

Quote from: blakkieHinterWelt so nailed it.

EDIT: I can't shake the feeling that it's like you haven't actually played the game muchless the supplements?

I have played (D&D 3x) it although not extensively. I frankly dislike the game.

But a look at the rules as well as what experience I have (including examing long term characters of other players) tells me there is significant niche protection. Hit points vary by class, they have different spells, certain skills are doubled in cost for certain classes and the ability to buy them is in general restricted unless lots of skills are part of the class niche.

Even if one multi-classes to gain the some abilities of other classes- you leave other things on the table.

The whole design screams moderate to strong niche protection.

I don't see how you could seriously suggest otherwise.

QuoteEven if one multi-classes to gain the some abilities of other classes- you leave other things on the table.

The whole design screams moderate to strong niche protection.

...and that is going in which direction? Then you've got healing arcane spells, spells to make Wizards ass kicking swordsmen, relaxing of Alignment requirements, relaxing of race requirements, more support for multiclass, further degratation of the innane "can't cast in armour", the splat books PrCs/Feats to patch up the multiclass problems with spellcasting, more classes/PrCs to blur the sword swinger/caster roles, stuff to make 'Paladins' for other alignments, and the list goes on.

But of course all you see a "niches". It's like saying there are so many trees there isn't room for a forest.  I think that pretty much wraps it.....

Quote from: blakkieBut of course all you see a "niches". It's like saying there are so many trees there isn't room for a forest.  I think that pretty much wraps it.....

I"m really only concerned with the core books and products considered core by WotC. Those have Moderate to Strong niche protection.

Optional and experimental expansion are just that, optional and experimental for those who what something different from the original game design.

Third party expansions and the like aren't under their control and are likely to move outside the original intent. In fact, I understand that WotC intends to narrow their license to prevent this exact thing from happening with 4th edition.

Frankly I don't see this point as really being in contention. It's almost a post-modernist argument in fact.


Who here agrees that D&D 3.x offers little to no niche protection (i.e. no significant difference between characters based upon class choice and/or skill choice)?

I'm NOT talking about 3rd party, I'm talking core books and official general use WotC splat books. :rolleyes: That stuff, and more, is all in there. I suggest you play/read some more.

Quote from: gleichmanIt would seem to me that any designer should be aware of the range, and thus determine the best place on it for his design. Players should be aware of it in order to select games that suit their needs.

In a focused group, very useful. On an internet forum, less so. I think there could be merit in such a discussion with other designers or publishers. About a year ago I had a really good one with some mid-tier publishers on a closed forum.

Quote from: gleichmanTo reference the market if you must provides one answer. D&D current rules it with moderate to strong niche protection leaving you as the one out of step.

See!! This is the problem. Definitions.

Bill

My most successful thread ever and I'm not even sure they're talking about what I was talking about....



Huzzah!

Quote from: blakkieI'm NOT talking about 3rd party, I'm talking core books and official general use WotC splat books. :rolleyes: That stuff, and more, is all in there. I suggest you play/read some more.

I'm sorry blakkie, but your claim flys in the face of reality. I see significant differences between characters in D&D due to its mechanics unless they specifically try for the same niche. I don't see how playing more would change that.

I'm afraid I'm going to have dismiss this line of debate unless I see significant support from other people here that agree with you that there is basically no differences between classes, skill and feat choice in D&D 3.x

Perhaps if you posted examples from the books where different classes produce exactly the same results.

Quote from: HinterWeltIn a focused group, very useful. On an internet forum, less so. I think there could be merit in such a discussion with other designers or publishers. About a year ago I had a really good one with some mid-tier publishers on a closed forum.

Ah, so we make the same claim as the Forge does. Only the elite may speak and have meaningful exchanges about game design.

Very well, I'm not a member of the elite. You may feel free therefor to ignore me.

Quote from: HinterWeltSee!! This is the problem. Definitions.

l[/QUOTE]

I believe we already discovered this. But few here seem interested in reaching agreement on those definitions.

Quote from: gleichmanI'm sorry blakkie, but your claim flys in the face of reality.

:tears:  Whatever, if you manage to convince yourself of that there isn't much use in having a discussion with you.