Across the intartubes I read about 'niche protection'. I read about 'game balance' I read about... stuff. Metagamey stuff, and you know...

... I think it's all bollix.


Just the other day I was discussing 'Synthecardium' in Shadowrun in relationship to 'gymnastics dodging'. The Developers had spoken: Sythecardium added it's bonus dice to all athletics tests, including Dodging tests using the gymnastics skill.  This made the Synthecardium the cheapest, most effective bonus stacking defensive device in the game, a must have if you don't like getting shot. It also put a nail in the coffin of the ordinary Dodge skill.

Why do this? Because from a metagame perspective, trying to rule synthecardium as anything but absolute was nightmarishly convoluted.


Today people are talking about why assault rifles have their own special skill compared to regular rifles (and shotguns) and the answer that has the concensus? They did it so there are more skills needed to be good at 'shadowrunning'. Again a metagame thing.

Despite having an 'open' character creation, people talk about hyperspecialized runners and 'niche protection' then bitch about 'what is the hacker going to do during the gunfights'... then make up some wonky houserules that allow hackers to brainfry anyone, regardless of connectivity.

Niche protection.


Ah, but you say: that's shadowrun, take it to dumphsock jackass!

Really now?

Why does D&D have classes?  Could it be that it was simply an easy way to model fantasy wargame minatures?  It was a simple solution to a simple problem, but we can't ditch the idea even now because.. often.. Niche Protection as some holy grail to be sought and protected.

Adventures are designed around balanced parties, players make sacrifices of what they want to play so their party will have at least one representative of each class.

I cry foul.

I watch a 'team' movie like Predator, and I see a fuckload of sneaky melee guys with big fucking guns. You have the redneck big motherfucker with guns, the nerdy big motherfucker with guns, the angry black big motherfucker with guns and even the racist stereotype indian big motherfucker with guns.

Wait.. they are ALL big motherfuckers with guns!!!!

Holy Shit! Imagine that! No niches!!!

Its funny, but when Obama talks about race people go on and on about finally treating one another as adults, but when it comes to gaming its all about protecting our immature childish minds. Gotta have dedicated roles, gotta protect those niches. Gotta limit the ability of characters to be awesome.

Hell, I've seen combinations of mechanics and character creation rules that force you to makes idiot savants to be any good at anything! Often some other knucklehead then comes around and suggests limiting the savant portion of it... meaning... HEY! lets all play Idiots!

Brilliant fucking plan, man...


Maybe its me. I mean, by some accounts I could be accorded the dubious distinction of being a simulationist.  I like my rules to mimic both reality to an extent, and movie reality, or even action adventure novel reality.  They aren't totally compatable, but they sure as shit are ten times as compatable as RPG reality and any other... Mostly because there aren't idiot designers, then idiot 'Game masters' trying to keep everyone balanced... which seems to be local lingo for 'morons'.

We, as gamers, are responsible for this plague of munchkins and hyper optimized character makers.  We are, for allowing, even demanding that our rules systems only allow us to make broken characters.

Hell, pain me as it might, maybe the Pundit was on to something when he talked about superheroes and protagonism.  Maybe the best game system is one where the hero can do anything in his schtick and the only thing worth comparing his how 'cool' he is (protagonism).

Maybe 'There Is No Spoon' is the motherfucking HEIGHT of game design as we understand it.

QuoteIt also put a nail in the coffin of the ordinary Dodge skill.

The Dodge skill was already dead, in a fully nailed shut coffin, and buried with a 21-Slivergun salute because the Dodge action is the choice of losers. "Qui audet adipiscitur."

QuoteWhy do this? Because from a metagame perspective, trying to rule synthecardium as anything but absolute was nightmarishly convoluted.

Well you do still have to play the game, hopefully finishing sometime this decade. F*ck convoluted.  Someone just asked me yesterday to play SR3. F*ck them too.

QuoteDespite having an 'open' character creation, people talk about hyperspecialized runners and 'niche protection' then bitch about 'what is the hacker going to do during the gunfights'... then make up some wonky houserules that allow hackers to brainfry anyone, regardless of connectivity.

Niche protection.

I call that a bad reaction trying to break down a fairly natural and soft 'niche protection' type result of hyper specialization. You are pointing at the wrong culpert. Point at the dumb people.

Quote from: SpikeAh, but you say: that's shadowrun, take it to dumphsock jackass!

My first reaction was "Stay away from Dumpshock if people saying stupid shit bothers you". Wonky doesn't begin to cover some of the houserules that come up there. :haw:


EDIT: But yeah, I agree with the part Stuart agrees with. If you are cool with limiting your game to whatever those sneaky melee guys with big fucking guns can do, rock on!  But some people want unique and beautiful snowflakes and aren't happy with how much being a stereotype indian big motherfucker in that group makes you one. :shrug:

Quote from: SpikeAdventures are designed around balanced parties, players make sacrifices of what they want to play so their party will have at least one representative of each class.

I cry foul.

I watch a 'team' movie like Predator, and I see a fuckload of sneaky melee guys with big fucking guns. You have the redneck big motherfucker with guns, the nerdy big motherfucker with guns, the angry black big motherfucker with guns and even the racist stereotype indian big motherfucker with guns.

Wait.. they are ALL big motherfuckers with guns!!!!

Holy Shit! Imagine that! No niches!!!

Yes!

Quote from: SpikeWait.. they are ALL big motherfuckers with guns!!!!

I saw niches in that movie, a great number of them in fact.

Did this need a new thread?

Quote from: gleichmanI saw niches in that movie, a great number of them in fact.

I'm curious which ones you see, in the protogonist group?

Of course you always get roles within the domain that characters will take up but it's a matter of how strongly they get imposed upon you by the rules. Say some arbitrary rule that you can't talk on the radio if you have an M60.

Ironically this is all linked back to that Sett thread about your tactics/strategy article. Those niche creations aren't really about tactics/strategy at all, they are about creating snowflakes and ultimately dilute the purity of tactics/strategy. Which I've made my peace with because RPGs aren't about tactics/strategy, they are about individuals. So tactics, and especially strategy get the backseat. :shrug:

Of course that isn't the only shortcoming I saw in that article of yours, there was another much bigger down at the bottom. But that's something for yet another thread....

QuoteDid this need a new thread?

Different forum and the other one is >100 posts. :haw: I long ago stopped reading it.

Quote from: blakkieI'm curious which ones you see, in the protogonist group?

Just from memory, it's been a while since I've seen it...

I saw the Scout (complete with Native-America 'danger sense').

I saw the BFG wielder with mini-gun and semi-auto GL.

I saw the electronics nerd.

I saw the classic demo man.

I saw the all-around Miltary Leader.


I'm sure each were crossed-trained in the skills of the others, but each of these had the best bonuses for their niche of the group. Thus, niches.

Quote from: blakkieIronically this is all linked back to that Sett thread about your tactics/strategy article. Those niche creations aren't really about tactics/strategy at all, they are about creating snowflakes and ultimately dilute the purity of tactics/strategy. Which I've made piece with because RPGs aren't about tactics/strategy, they are about individuals.

Of course that isn't the only shortcoming I saw in that article, there was another much bigger down at the bottom. But that's something for another thread....?

If you wish. I agree I'd rather debate it somewhere other than here.

Quote from: gleichmanI'm sure each were crossed-trained in the skills of the others...

Exactly. If any of those big sweaty motherfuckers would have taken the lead or blown stuff up or gone on recon we'd bat nary an eyelash.

Quote from: blakkieExactly. If any of those big sweaty motherfuckers would have taken the lead or blown stuff up or gone on recon we'd bat nary an eyelash.

Doesn't change the fact that there is moderate niche protection going on.

Of course to understand what I mean by moderate niche protection, you'd have to read the other thread. I think it actually started to see common ground...

There's a difference between characters each having traits that make them recognizable and different from one another, and having a group of characters who are *very* different from each other.

Predator and Aliens has soldiers who are all very similar from a "skills and abilities" point of view.

League of Extraordinary Gentlmen... pretty different.

Is this "moderate niche protection" stuff from some other discussion?  I have no idea what you mean between light, moderate, chocolatey, and heavy niche protection.

Quote from: StuartIs this "moderate niche protection" stuff from some other discussion?  I have no idea what you mean between light, moderate, chocolatey, and heavy niche protection.

See One Horse Town's post here:
http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=189432&postcount=125

And my reply here:
http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=189442&postcount=130

Inbetween and around there were some worthwhile things too. Not all thread get worse the longer they go. But that one is now wandering a bit.

QuoteOf course you always get roles within the domain that characters will take up but it's a matter of how strongly they get imposed upon you by the rules. Say some arbitrary rule that you can't talk on the radio if you have an M60.

Quote from: gleichmanI think it actually started to see common ground...

Yeah, probably. I was seeing some of it in the other thread before I gave up reading it. But I see 'niche' falling away to 'role', especially in games that allow you to match or surpase the original 'expert' in that role. Either momentarily (for example stuff like Edge in Shadowrun 4 or with gear) or in a more permanent way through character growth or just an intersection with some other aspect of your character (Scouting in your own hometown). I see little if any niche, muchless niche protection, where that's the case.

Quote from: blakkieBut I see 'niche' falling away to 'role', especially in games that allow you to match or surpase the original 'expert' in that role.

I agree with you here, and labeled that under weak niche protection.

Weak as opposed to none, as while it's not mechanically enforced (or even suggested) it can be socially enforced.

I am coming to the conclusion that this is a pretty useless topic. Great for generating discussion but lousy for any conclusions. For instance. a lot of it depends on your definition of niche protection. Some folks hold that just about every game has some form of niche protection. Rarified is the game that has no niche protection. One could almost make a bell curve out of the rarity of niche protected games with non on one side and strong "you have one role" on the other.

Me, I tend to be skewed on this. I tend to think there are very few with strong niche protection, some with moderate, more with light and a fair number with none. However, again, this is dependant on my experience with games and definition of niche protection. To me, as long as characters can take everyones skills, advance at an equal rate, and there are not artificial caps...well that isn't niche protection. Basically, when you have a "you cannot take x skill form that class" or "It costs y times 2 for you to take out of class skills" you have niche protection.

That said, niche protection is valid for game design but I do not think it speaks to the current market. Only my opinion, but players seem much more interested in what makes their character special than whether being a fighter makes them special. So, if you offer them the option of getting special thing x then they will be happy, better if they can apply special ability x in their own clever way.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltI am coming to the conclusion that this is a pretty useless topic. Great for generating discussion but lousy for any conclusions. For instance. a lot of it depends on your definition of niche protection. Some folks hold that just about every game has some form of niche protection. Rarified is the game that has no niche protection. One could almost make a bell curve out of the rarity of niche protected games with non on one side and strong "you have one role" on the other.

Was it you or flyingmice that once said that the resolution mechanic itself was a meaningless topic?

I fail to see how just because there is a range of niche protection, the topic isn't worth talking about. But if it was a yes/no, it would be there a useful topic.

It would seem to me that any designer should be aware of the range, and thus determine the best place on it for his design. Players should be aware of it in order to select games that suit their needs.

Quote from: HinterWeltThat said, niche protection is valid for game design but I do not think it speaks to the current market.

To reference the market if you must provides one answer. D&D current rules it with moderate to strong niche protection leaving you as the one out of step.

If you just referencing the market you sell to, I think that's a self-defining answer which you're correct about- it's not a very interesting topic to anyone but perhaps you and your customers.