So, I was just looking at the stats on the wizard for the B/X demo that Sanc is doing over on the development site, and I was thinking about functions for improving low ability rolls in the assorted games.  

Hackmaster's fractional scores and improvement based on your honor die came to mind for me, but I'm sure we all agree that Honor in HM is a huge PITA, so it's not something that is easily tracked without disrupting gameplay.

But what about something based on the Prime Requisites?  You could have fractional ability scores for each stat, then based on the prime requisite of the character class, the stats of the character could improve at every level.  There would be opposition stats as well, defining an entire range of how much a character can receive based on what stats are important to them

STR--3--INT
 1  2 2  1
DEX--3--WIS
 1  2 2  1
CON--3--CHA
Prime Requisite:  d20
Remove Steps:
   1 - d10
   2 - d6
   3 - d4
So, for example, a Fighter would roll 1d20 at each level for STR, 1d10 for DEX and CON, 1d6 for WIS and CHA, and 1d4 for INT.


In the case of classes with more than one Prime Requisite, the class would receive the PR die on each of their PR stats, but would take the less favorable path for each stat when calculating their advance die.

So, a Paladin would roll 1d20 for STR and WIS, 1d6 for CON and CHA, and 1d4 for DEX and INT

The idea here is that as long as a character is working in a class, he'll be improving the stats that are important to that class.

How do you think stat progression should be worked in?  Does it destroy the flavor of older-school games?

Just a random thought at 9am for me.

Took me awhile to understand what was going on there. Would you start each stat with a d100 roll for a percentage fraction, as in HackMaster with its scores of 15/87 and 16/55 and so on? I'm assuming that, since I can't see how else the rolling of d20, d10, d4,d4 would work.
 
Didn't like the method so much since I don't like boring stereotype characters with 18s in their prime requisite. I'd be OK with stat improvements with level in general however.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;576439Took me awhile to understand what was going on there. Would you start each stat with a d100 roll for a percentage fraction, as in HackMaster with its scores of 15/87 and 16/55 and so on? I'm assuming that, since I can't see how else the rolling of d20, d10, d4,d4 would work.

Yeah, that was the general idea.  It would also work best for fairly hardcore games, where you don't allow any stat adjustment or rearranging in the beginning.
 

QuoteDidn't like the method so much since I don't like boring stereotype characters with 18s in their prime requisite. I'd be OK with stat improvements with level in general however.

I actually thought about saying that it stops at 16 no matter what.   The idea isn't to make supermen, it's that as you progress your become better in the areas that you focus on.  So for example over on the B/X game, the wizard has a 12 int; through gameplay, he would eventually be able to realize his ability to cast the higher level spells.

For those confused: HackMaster uses the standard D&D stats + Looks (Comeliness in 4e). At creation you roll 3d6 and a d100 for each stat, ending up with something like this:
STR 13/24
INT 11/67
WIS 7/98
DEX 16/84
and so on.

When you level up you roll various dice and add one die to the fractional component of each of those stats. When a fractional exceeds 100, you subtract 100 from it and increase the base stat by 1. For instance, if the player above rolled a 5 for Wisdom it would become 8/03. Clear?

In 4e the dice were generally a standard d20 set (plus and extra d4 for Comeliness? but don't hold me to that since we haven't played 4e since HackMaster Basic released), but some classes get better dice and some use odd dice. I vaguely remember seeing a d5 in at least one class.

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We are certainly not in agreement that Honor is a pain in the ass and disruptive. My players thrive on it. 5e is so much more deadly than 4e was that not using Honor is a good way to get the characters killed. We find it highly intuitive and a whole lot of fun, in both editions.

A note on your title: For some mind-boggling reason, 5e removed Honor Dice from the game. We're currently using 4e's Honor Dice and adding them to level up dice and skill mastery and rolls, and using them for all the other things we could use them for in 4e. They're supposedly putting them back in a future supplement, but the community at large is quite baffled that they weren't in the Player's Handbook. (Another note to those unfamiliar with HackMaster: in 4e you also added your Honor Die to each of those level up dice.)

But they also made a ton of changes I do like. One was a major improvement to level up dice that I prefer to 4e's, and thus to what you've got here: Instead of your class determining where your dice go, you get to assign a full d20 set however you want and then roll them (but Looks never changes).

The whole group much prefers being able to decide where their dice go so they can choose whether to shore up weakness, build up strengths, or work on whatever other stat goals they may have. HackMaster is a game about tough choices. That's why they decided to give players one more choice by letting them choose where to put their level up dice. It's also nice because you don't have to try and remember which dice go where each level. Instead you just grab your d20 set and assign them wherever you want.

When we converted my 4e game to 5e I started them at level 5 since the average party level in 4e was a bit more than 2 and each level in 5e equals about half a level in 4e. So I had the players make their characters and then we leveled them all up in a batch. One player had a stubborn 9 (in Wisdom, if memory serves), so every level he put his d20 there, and finally got it to 10 just as he hit level 5.

He was remaking his old elf ranger and by luck ended up with an 18 Dexterity, so being forced to put the d20 in it would have been pointless and annoying – especially since most stats cap at 20 now. That's why he put the d4 into his Dex every level instead.

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I am so fond of this idea that I would use it if I ever made a level-based game. Unfortunately, with the exception of HackMaster I don't like level-based games so it's unlikely I'll ever make one.

The main reason I like is that stat growth is organic. As time goes by your character gradually gets more powerful, both physically mentally. Thus his various stats also go up gradually to very effectively represent that slow continuous improvement. It's largely because of HackMaster that I so dislike D&D's "get stat bumps at level X" method. I find it boring and too unrealistic.

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EDIT: After posting I noticed that my post count got reset. Weird.

Quote from: fewilcox;583924In 4e the dice were generally a standard d20 set (plus and extra d4 for Comeliness? but don't hold me to that since we haven't played 4e since HackMaster Basic released), but some classes get better dice and some use odd dice. I vaguely remember seeing a d5 in at least one class.

I could've sworn that it was just your current honor die, but I haven't run HM in quite a while, so I will trust your experience.

QuoteInstead of your class determining where your dice go, you get to assign a full d20 set however you want and then roll them (but Looks never changes).

The whole group much prefers being able to decide where their dice go so they can choose whether to shore up weakness, build up strengths, or work on whatever other stat goals they may have.

I am so fond of this idea that I would use it if I ever made a level-based game.

I like that idea as well, it promotes a little more feeling of a character growing in the directions of his interests, although it would open up a bit of min-maxing in some cases.  I think I'd definitely put a hard cap on any stats if I were using that rule, to prevent someone from stacking their high rolls with their d20 for an obnoxious stat.

I'd also rigidly enforce the 3d6 straight rule of stat rolling.  No reason to be cushy with them if they're going to be able to raise their stats eventually anyway.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;585111I could've sworn that it was just your current honor die, but I haven't run HM in quite a while, so I will trust your experience.

You rolled your Honor Die as well – something that 5e surprisingly lacks.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;585111I like that idea as well, it promotes a little more feeling of a character growing in the directions of his interests, although it would open up a bit of min-maxing in some cases. I think I'd definitely put a hard cap on any stats if I were using that rule, to prevent someone from stacking their high rolls with their d20 for an obnoxious stat.

I assume that's why stats are capped at 20 in 5e (CON and CHA at 22). To me it seems most likely that min/maxers would probably end up putting the dice exactly where they'd have been forced to in 4e anyway so it probably doesn't make much difference. Thankfully I've only had to play with a couple, and only at D&D Encounters instead of an actual campaign, so I don't really have enough experience with min/maxers to know for sure.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;585111I'd also rigidly enforce the 3d6 straight rule of stat rolling. No reason to be cushy with them if they're going to be able to raise their stats eventually anyway.

It's been too long since I made or supervised the making of a 4e character so I don't remember some of the details of that process, but in 5e you start with 40 BP (classes cost 20-75 depending upon race) and get 50 more if you take your stats in rolled order, 25 more if you swap two, and 0 more if you put them wherever you want. In all cases you start with 3d6, 7 times, in order.

So far I've made several characters of my own, as well as five pre-gens for demos, and supervised my players making HMB characters and now they are nearly done making full 5e characters. In all that time I can only remember two cases where someone decided to swap two stats. And no one has yet been willing to give up the 50 BP to arrange them freely. That tells me K&C did a great job of encouraging players to keep their stats as rolled. It also means I don't have to put with players begging me to let them arrange their rolled stats. 8o)

Quote from: Panzerkraken;585111I think I'd definitely put a hard cap on any stats if I were using that rule, to prevent someone from stacking their high rolls with their d20 for an obnoxious stat.

In the new HM, when you level, you assign your leveling dice first, then roll.  There's no way to stack your high rolls to a stat.

For example, for my Elven Rogue, I might assign this way.. STR (d8), INT (d10), WIS (d12), DEX (d4), CON (d20), CHA (d6).  

Once assigned, you then roll.  It's very possible to roll higher on the d4 than on the d20.  You can level 5 times, stick your d20 on the same stat, and still not level him more then 10 percentage points.

Quote from: griffonwing;585943In the new HM, when you level, you assign your leveling dice first, then roll.  There's no way to stack your high rolls to a stat.

For example, for my Elven Rogue, I might assign this way.. STR (d8), INT (d10), WIS (d12), DEX (d4), CON (d20), CHA (d6).  

Once assigned, you then roll.  It's very possible to roll higher on the d4 than on the d20.  You can level 5 times, stick your d20 on the same stat, and still not level him more then 10 percentage points.

Really?  Dice can work that way?  My world is shaken.

while that's possible, the law of averages still states that you'll raise it by 55 percentage points more often than you'll raise it by 10.  

I understood what his description was about initially, I was saying that I wanted to place a hard  cap to prevent someone putting a racially-maxxed stat into their PR and then dropping their highest die on that stat in order to excessively level it.  I'm sure HM has it's own checks, but I was thinking about using the generality of the percentiles for all the stats in other forms of d&d-esque games.

Quote from: griffonwing;585943In the new HM, when you level, you assign your leveling dice first, then roll.  There's no way to stack your high rolls to a stat.

For example, for my Elven Rogue, I might assign this way.. STR (d8), INT (d10), WIS (d12), DEX (d4), CON (d20), CHA (d6).  

Once assigned, you then roll.  It's very possible to roll higher on the d4 than on the d20.  You can level 5 times, stick your d20 on the same stat, and still not level him more than 10 percentage points.

...just like my poor player who needed four level ups to finally get his 9 CON to 10 with a d20+Honor Die every time.

One level his d12 penetrated twice (so a minimum of 12+11+11+0=34; I don't remember how much he actually got), but penetrating on a d20 is much rarer and it penetrates into a d6 even if you manage it. So, like you said, it is actually easier to get higher results on smaller dice simply because of penetration (which is also one of the things that makes HackMaster so awesome).