On my gaming centered livejournal/blog I have begun to play around with my own ideas about game theory and how to go about it. I'd love to hear any feedback that folks here may have on the topic.

http://dragonspawnlair.livejournal.com/4309.html

For those of you too lazy to click the link ...

QuoteLately I have been playing around with some of my own ideas about game theory and how I would go about it. So for your enjoyment I humbly present...

"Foundation Game Theory"

Mission Statement: The mission of this theory is to re-examine gaming theory in order to provide accessible and useful guidelines for game designers. This theory will draw inspiration from the most popular and successful roleplaying games, the people who created them, and the sources of inspiration they used while creating them. Due to these sources, this theory will be applicable first and foremost to Fantasy RPGs, but will attempt to create principles of game design that are applicable to all genres.

Dungeons and Dragons is the worlds most successful roleplaying game. While this does not necessarily make it the best game possible, it does show us that there are some things it does very well, which should be incorporated into any good gaming theory. The initial inspiration for this gaming theory will thus be taken from the most excellent insights provided by Gary Gygax in the beginning of the 1e Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Dungeon Master's Guide.

The elements of this theory will be divided into two categories, laws and principles. Laws are statements of game design that should always be followed to achieve the best possible result. Principles are more mutable statements that may be true MOST of the time, but may not apply to all situations. In many cases a principle is a statement that is derivative of or a logical extension of a law.

Definition of Roleplaying:
Roleplaying is at its most basic level the act of taking on a role or persona other than ones own.

Definition of Game:
A game is an organized activity in which people participate in for mutual fun and enjoyment. Games are structured around a set of rules which dictate how the game is played in order to reduce disputes and to keep the game moving forward and to keep people entertained.

Definition of Roleplaying Game:
Given the definitions above, a roleplaying game is an organized activity in which people use a set of rules that aid them in taking on different personas or characters who interact with one-another in the game. As a game, the ultimate purpose of this exercise is the enjoyment of the participants. Other goals such as competition, cooperation, plot, story or theme may be added, but they are secondary to the pursuit of fun.

Definition of Theory:
A theory is a proposed idea or principle that describes the way something works. Any theory must begin as a hypothesis, and has to stand up to significant testing and peer review. If the initial hypothesis does not stand up to testing, or portions of it are found to be incorrect or ineffectual, the hypothesis must be altered to account for these issues before it can truly be considered a theory. Even then a theory is not beyond re-examination or questioning. A good theory evolves in the face of new information.

Definition of Game Designer:
A game designer is anyone who is attempting to make a gaming product that will be available to the general public in some format whether it be in book form or pint. Within the context of this theory it specifically applies to those people designing Roleplaying Games for distribution.

The Law of Challenge:
A well designed game provides considerable challenge for most of the players most of the time. A game that is not challenging to its players will quickly become dull and uninteresting, while a game that is too complex or too difficult may discourage play.

The Law of Free Reign:
A well designed game or scenario avoids telling the players exactly how to play the game. Methods of play can be suggested, broad contexts can be provided, and plotlines can be presented, but forcing the players into a particular play style or railroading the plot without any room for player character choice will quickly lead to a loss of interest in the game by most players, and should be avoided.

The Law of Creative Humility:
No matter how good or creative game designer is, the players of a game are likely to come up with ideas that the designer never would have imagined. Inevitably the players will find many of their own ideas far more interesting for them than what the game designer has provided. Good game design takes this into account and leaves plenty of room for the creativity of the players rather than limiting it. Good game design allows the players to be successful in coming up with their own solutions to the challenges that the game presents, rather than forcing them to take one of the solutions or strategies pre-determined by the game designer.

The Law of Unnecessary Complexity:
Since overly complex rules confuse new players and bog down gameplay, good game design includes avoiding rules that add unnecessary complexity without significantly improving the game.

The Law of Cohesive Mechanics:
In the interest of easing game play, and increasing the verisimilitude of the game world, the mechanics of a game should be as unified as possible. Ideally most elements of the game will follow a single core mechanic that is both simple and intuitive. Variations of this mechanic may exist, but they should be kept to a minimum.

Law of Story Elements:
Roleplaying Games create a story as a product of play. This may be merely a side-effect of play or one of the goals of play depending on the players' and Game Master's goals and play styles. Whether purposeful or not, a roleplaying game will take on the traditional elements of a story such as characters, setting, theme, and plot. These elements are not only useful in describing a roleplaying game, but many literary techniques involving such story elements (ex: foreshadowing, plot exposition, conflict creation, narration) can also be applied to roleplaying game design.

The Seven Plus or Minus Two Principle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magical_Number_Seven,_Plus_or_Minus_Two
According to psychological studies the average human brain can consider up to seven options simultaneously. For some this number is as low as five and for others it is up to nine options at once. Ideally RPG design should take these factors into account. In combat, the possible basic maneuvers should be limited to around seven, Skill lists should not exceed 5-7 skills per key ability, spell selection should give you between 5 and 7 spell choices at any given point in character creation.

The Principle of Open Design:
The Principle of Open Design is derived from the Law of Creative Humility. Since the game designer can never think of all the ideas that the game players will conceive of and desire to use, it is important to show the mechanisms used to build game elements such as monsters, vehicles, armament, equipment or spells. Explicitly providing the guidelines that the designer used to create these elements allows the players to create their own game elements with the most ease if they so desire.

The Principle of Versatility:
This principle derives from the law of free reign. Wherever possible the game designer should strive to make their products compatible with as many play styles as possible.

The Principle of Options over Restrictions:
This principle derives from the law of Free Reign and the law of Creative Humility. Since the game creator can never conceive of every use of the game product, and should give the players free reign, it follows that wherever possible the game designer should provide options that allow the players and Game Master to alter or adjust the game to meet their preferences and the needs of the genre being emulated.

Principle of the Hero's Journey:
This principle is derived from the law of story elements. Campbel's Hero's Journey codifies the underlying structure behind most ancient tales and myths, and his story formula has been used in the creation of such classics as The Lion King and Star Wars. The elements of the hero's journey are not necessarily a key component of good game design, but they make for a very useful framework for building adventures. As with any formula, variations should be encouraged to prevent predictability.

Principle of Variable Challenge Level:
This principle derives from the Law of Challenge. Since it is important to challenge the players in a roleplaying game, and players skills and abilities often grow over time, a game designer can make their product more useful by giving the Game Master advice on how to adjust challenges in order to accommodate groups of player characters of varying levels of ability and competence.

Please discuss/comment/critique.

Oh, my, _starting_ with "laws"?

Quote from: SosthenesOh, my, _starting_ with "laws"?

Perhaps "law" is too strong a word?
I had figured people would take it all in context, but if folks think the word "law" will turn people off to the ideas presented I can easily change the terms used.

Well, at least there are no flower names in there

well as stated in the mission statement, the goal is to provide useful accessible theory without obfuscating things with overly intellectual language or excessive and unnecessary invention of new terminology.

Well, how do you intend the follow through? Examine every proposition/law?
Also, you already mention the Law of Seven, maybe examining the Uncanny Valley might be rather useful, too. I think there's lots of truth in that, especially when it comes to "realism" in gaming.

Quote from: SosthenesWell, how do you intend the follow through? Examine every proposition/law?
Also, you already mention the Law of Seven, maybe examining the Uncanny Valley might be rather useful, too. I think there's lots of truth in that, especially when it comes to "realism" in gaming.

I was hoping to get feedback from other gamers and game designers to both examine the current laws/principles and also to see how they might be expanded.

Your "Uncanny Valley" suggestion is one of the kinds of feedback I am looking for, I'm just not entierly sure how this phenomenon would apply to gaming. People will react well to settings that are fantastic or very realistic, but will be less comfortable with those that are inbetween? Or in terms of roleplaying, games can be really immersive, making the characters very real to the players, or allow the players to keep their emotional/intellectual distance from their characters but the area in the middle will really creep people out?:raise:

The system is a prime candidate for such a reflex to happen. People have no problem accepting a very abstract combat system, but when you get down to simulating automatic fire, lots of people who know a little about the subject will object. This is obviously more important for the technical parts, as "simulating" the human body and psyche is a much more fuzzy subject.

And yes, the immersion is a big factor, too. Cliched roles and detailed characters work alright, but once you get down to simulating every nook and  cranny of an artificial persona, you're going to far for most people. The valley is right before it gets "real".

The same is true for the genres itself, one reason why fantasy and sci-fi are much more popular than modern eras.

I, for one, find it somewhat offensive to suggest that the Hero's Journey should be a foundation. I'm not an expert on Campbell, but I understand the Heroes Journey was just ONE of some 30 odd 'mega-Plots' that all stories were modeled after. ONE.

We already have some 2000 RPGs out there, and just about every one of them attempts to model the heroes Journey to some extent, possibly out of laziness of design (start weak, get stronger... duh...) rather than finding new paths.  I keep waiting for the RPG to come out that involves less growth and more 'change' as a fundamental...


More to the point:  RPG games are not stories, not mythic tales of aulde. Using, as a Fundamental, something intrinsically tied to storytelling strikes me as going down the wrong path.  Other than the level/XP system, how exactly does, say, D&D model the Heroes Journey? Is there a  mechanic for a Mentor figure who will die/disappear just before the hero thinks he's ready? Nope. Is there a mechanic for plucking ordinary folks from comfortable lives and setting their feet on the path to adventure? Not really. Your first level character is assumed to be past all that. They are already 'adventure minded', and already have the foundation of tools and skills they need to do what they do.

Aside from the frothing rage rantiness, I hope I was able to communicate clearly where I stand on this idea.  In other words, I think its faffin' wonderful. :what:

Quote from: SpikeI, for one, find it somewhat offensive to suggest that the Hero's Journey should be a foundation.

Since it is a principle and not a law, It is meant to suggest that it is auseful tool that most (but not all) RPGs could get some use out of. I actually expected at least one person to disagree with this, which is good because then we can talk out its merits... but offensive?

Quote from: SpikeI'm not an expert on Campbell, but I understand the Heroes Journey was just ONE of some 30 odd 'mega-Plots' that all stories were modeled after. ONE.

Interesting. Any idea where I could look to find the other 29 mega-plots you are referring to? I certainly don't want to uneccessarily focus on 1/30th of the whole.

Quote from: SpikeWe already have some 2000 RPGs out there, and just about every one of them attempts to model the heroes Journey to some extent, possibly out of laziness of design (start weak, get stronger... duh...) rather than finding new paths.  I keep waiting for the RPG to come out that involves less growth and more 'change' as a fundamental...

What RPGs are you refering to here? I was unaware of any that conciously tried to follow the hero's journey.Also the hero's journey has plenty of challenges in it. They are refered to as thresholds, and the threshold guardians who guard them as well as the final confrontation with the Enemy.

Quote from: SpikeMore to the point:  RPG games are not stories, not mythic tales of aulde. Using, as a Fundamental, something intrinsically tied to storytelling strikes me as going down the wrong path.

Well you can't deny the influence of mythology on fantasy RPGs (well I suppose you COULD, but it would be rather silly). I am merely proposing that the elements that make a story interesting can often also be used to make an RPG interesting. They are not the same thing, but they have all the same elements... Plot (as provided by the GM), Characters (PCs and NPCs), Setting, and so on.  
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Quote from: SpikeI, for one, find it somewhat offensive to suggest that the Hero's Journey should be a foundation.

Since it is a principle and not a law, It is meant to suggest that it is auseful tool that most (but not all) RPGs could get some use out of. I actually expected at least one person to disagree with this, which is good because then we can talk out its merits... but offensive?

Quote from: SpikeI'm not an expert on Campbell, but I understand the Heroes Journey was just ONE of some 30 odd 'mega-Plots' that all stories were modeled after. ONE.

Interesting. Any idea where I could look to find the other 29 mega-plots you are referring to? I certainly don't want to uneccessarily focus on 1/30th of the whole.

Quote from: SpikeWe already have some 2000 RPGs out there, and just about every one of them attempts to model the heroes Journey to some extent, possibly out of laziness of design (start weak, get stronger... duh...) rather than finding new paths.  I keep waiting for the RPG to come out that involves less growth and more 'change' as a fundamental...

What RPGs are you refering to here? I was unaware of any that conciously tried to follow the hero's journey.Also the hero's journey has plenty of challenges in it. They are refered to as thresholds, and the threshold guardians who guard them as well as the final confrontation with the Enemy.

Quote from: SpikeMore to the point:  RPG games are not stories, not mythic tales of aulde. Using, as a Fundamental, something intrinsically tied to storytelling strikes me as going down the wrong path.

Well you can't deny the influence of mythology on fantasy RPGs (well I suppose you COULD, but it would be rather silly). I am merely proposing that the elements that make a story interesting can often also be used to make an RPG interesting. They are not the same thing, but they have all the same elements... Plot (as provided by the GM), Characters (PCs and NPCs), Setting, and so on.  

Quote from: SpikeOther than the level/XP system, how exactly does, say, D&D model the Heroes Journey?

Didn't you just say that most RPGs are modeled after the heroe's journey?

Quote from: SpikeIs there a  mechanic for a Mentor figure who will die/disappear just before the hero thinks he's ready?

Why would you need a mechanic for that? It is a plot device.

Quote from: SpikeIs there a mechanic for plucking ordinary folks from comfortable lives and setting their feet on the path to adventure?

I usually refer to that as the character's back story.

Quote from: SpikeAside from the frothing rage rantiness, I hope I was able to communicate clearly where I stand on this idea.

You made it quite clear where you stand, but I'd like to here more about why you are standing there.
Other than the level/XP system, how exactly does, say, D&D model the Heroes Journey?[/Quote] Didn't you just say that most RPGs are modeled after the heroe's journey?

Quote from: SpikeIs there a  mechanic for a Mentor figure who will die/disappear just before the hero thinks he's ready?

Why would you need a mechanic for that? It is a plot device.

Quote from: SpikeIs there a mechanic for plucking ordinary folks from comfortable lives and setting their feet on the path to adventure?

I usually refer to that as the character's back story.

Quote from: SpikeAside from the frothing rage rantiness, I hope I was able to communicate clearly where I stand on this idea.

You made it quite clear where you stand, but I'd like to here more about why you are standing there.

I'm not, as I said, an expert on Campbells theory... just familiar with it. The Heroes Journey is the most commonly known of his 'plots', in part due to Star Wars, the original trilogy modeling it almost to the letter from what I understand.

Simply going from weaker to more powerful is not, properly speaking, the Heroes Journey.  However, as I understood YOUR use of the term you were speaking of this model, one that I look forward to people moving away from, at least once in a while.

It seems like I need more of a grasp of what YOU meant before I can say anymore, I thought I covered in some detail where I was coming from.

I understand you dislike the hero's journey, I just got confused when you said most RPGs follow it as a model and then seemingly reversed your own position when you seemed to claim there was no way that D&D could model the hero's journey.

For me, the hero's journey (as presented in "the Hero of a Thousand Faces") is tied more to plot than rules set and game mechanics. It is something one would refer to when designing an adventure moreso than when designing a rules set.

The hero's journey consists of three parts, The Departure, The Descent and the Return. each of those three is split into different elements.

Here is a very simplified version:

The Departure
World of Common Day (a.k.a the PC's backstory & Campaign background)
The Call to Adventure (known as an "adventure hook" in RPGs)
Refusal of the Call (sometimes the PCs bite the adventure hook, sometimes they don't)
Supernatural Aid (any help gained before the adventure)
Crossing the First Threshold (Setting off the adventure, facing the first challenge and passing into an unexplored part of the campaign world.)
Belly of the Whale (entering a dangerous area,the point of no return.)

The Descent
Road of Trials (random encounters etc. on the way to the adventure site or dungeon, then entering the adventure site or dungeon)
Meeting with the Goddess (This bit has no real correspondence in most RPGs)
Atonement with the Father (a chance to atone for transgressions against god or alignment)
Apothesis (climax of the adventure, facing the "big bad" and possibly leveling up)
The Ultimate Boon (gaining XP, loot and whatever it was you were questing for in the first place).

The Return
Refusal of the Return ("but we just want to check the rest of the rooms we havent explored yet before we leave")
The Magic Flight ("time to leave, the castle is about to blow")
Rescue from without (sometimes the PCs need help to get back out of the adventure sight)
Crossing the Threshold (the final challenge... big bad comes back, castle or volcano erupts, ritual summons big demon or whatever else the heroes must survive)
Return (leaving the adventure sight back to homes/base of operations)
Master of Two Worlds (returning w loot and XP etc., taking stock of character development after adventure)
Freedom to Live ("that was fun... so what do we do now? Blow our gold? Party? Look for another Adventure?")

Now in my understanding Campbel described the Hero's journey as the "monomyth" and later came up with many cultural variations in his four voume work "The Masks of God" which may be where you got the 30 or so megaplots from, but in my understanding they are all variations on the original "hero's journey" as presented in "Hero of a Thousand Faces"

Am I missing something?

Well, right there you just went past my admittedly limited knowledge of Campbell... so stop asking me

Its not that I dislike the Heroes Journey in and of itself. I like me some starwars afterall. Its just what I thought you were calling for in your foundation laws was to keep making games that essentially play the 'level up'... something that I think is a hard paradigm to make work in RPGs, rather than suggesting we expand our various mechanics to explore new ways of keeping a character fresh and 'in the game' than powering up.

Part of the problem comes from the fact that your use of 'Heroes Journey' as a 'law' doesn't explain what you mean by that very clearly.  I assume one thing, you might mean another.  Hell, I'm still not sure what you intend.




Now let me explain what I mean by 'hard to work' re:powering up.

One long running debate I've heard and participated in re:D&D is the right 'level band' to where the game 'works'.  Characters level in power, often outstripping the ability of the mechanics to keep up.  If your characters level 'too fast' the campaign ends prematurely because they stomp over everything, if they level too slow, the players get bored/frustrated and the campaign ends because they can't keep up with the gribblies.

Say I have a cool character and cool ideas. In most game systems he starts off pathetically weak, probably to give him the most room to grow possible. In many game systems, I'd say the vast majority, it entirely possible, even likely, that he will grow so powerful/competent that he becomes unplayable long before I grow bored/exhaust every idea for him.

Going back to D&D, have you heard of groups that 'restart' every time their characters pass 10th level? I have. Frustrating to me, because usually I'm not done playing 'that guy'... players like me LIKE the long game, the multi-year campaigns that are so hard to find. Part of the reason being power levels.

Personally: I think 'leveling up', while useful as a starting point for Game Design, and certainly functional, is more appropriate to limited 'video game' style play.  Certainly the power differential of expirence vs inexperienced is.

I would like to see more games exploring different methods of 'expirence' that didn't involve power curves.  Its hard to illustrate what I mean simply because there aren't any good examples ready to hand.

Right now there is no good game where playing a grizzled veteran alongside a fresh faced kid is even an option.  The grizzled Veteran will dominate play or be 'just another character with some color to him'.  Frankly, that's some weak shit that in 30 odd years no one has found a good work around*




*Caveat: Shatterzone and related masterbook games sort of had something where you could chose to have either more attributes or more skills during character creation, thus creating the 'grizzled veteran' vs the 'talented new guy'... of course as either character gains XP they outstrip starting characters, leaving us back to the original problem.