Just to tie this back to the main topic of this thread, for all of the games on Amazon.com's list of best sellers -- and I mean ALL of them in all the sub categories, including Adventure & Story Games -- none of the theories from the Forge are applicable to the success of these games or are in any way helpful in developing games similar to any on that list.

If that doesn't prove a theory of game design wrong, I'm not sure how much more evidence would be required.

Quote from: StuartJust to tie this back to the main topic of this thread, for all of the games on Amazon.com's list of best sellers -- and I mean ALL of them in all the sub categories, including Adventure & Story Games -- none of the theories from the Forge are applicable to the success of these games or are in any way helpful in developing games similar to any on that list.

If that doesn't prove a theory of game design wrong, I'm not sure how much more evidence would be required.

Hmm. I think Amazon's definition of 'Adventure & Story Games' is a lot wider than most roleplayers, wargamers and so on would recognise. Most of those games are really what I would call 'family games', and I would be surprised if that was a controversial classification. Plus, to be frank: that information proves nothing like what you say. You might as well argue that Forgista theories are refuted because none of the best-selling computer games were used to design them. Sorry, it just doesn't wash as an argument, and it's certainly not wittily or vitriolically polemical.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenBeing an asshole doesn't make you right or wrong.  It just makes you an asshole.

Ask Pundit, he knows this.

True.
The world is full of assholes who are wrong.
Likewise, its also full of "nice-guys" who are just as dead wrong, no matter how nice they are about it.

And me, I'm an asshole who happens to be RIGHT.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditTrue.
The world is full of assholes who are wrong.
Likewise, its also full of "nice-guys" who are just as dead wrong, no matter how nice they are about it.

And me, I'm an asshole who happens to be RIGHT.

RPGPundit

LOL! Or, you could be an asshole who is dead wrong who just happends to be on the right side by sheer accident? (It's the old tent and pissing thing I guess.)

Quote from: JMcL63LOL! Or, you could be an asshole who is dead wrong who just happends to be on the right side by sheer accident? (It's the old tent and pissing thing I guess.)

Pundit's philosophy of gaming is internally self-consistent, and produces fun for his group.  As a gamer, he's doing it right.

His politics in the "warring tribes of gamers" debates are dirty, but so are mine.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenPundit's philosophy of gaming is internally self-consistent, and produces fun for his group.  As a gamer, he's doing it right.

His politics in the "warring tribes of gamers" debates are dirty, but so are mine.

I was just taking the piss. Mind you, I do have to remind you here of the pundit's Swinist nar-deviation: protagonism in supers rpg's. I'm sure he'll deny it till he's blue in the face, but whether he likes it or not he's calling for a narrative-based mechanic that trumps exactly the sort of crunchy goodness he champions in, say, D&D. Don't you think Levi?

Quote from: Levi KornelsenThe numbers tell us what current gamers like.

How, exactly, do they tell us what the rest of people out there would like?

Because they tell us exactly what has caught on, and to what limits.

The current numbers, for example, tell us that there is a great mass of people out there, including in the supposed target demographics (young males) for RPGs, that have NOT caught on to D&D in its current incarnation, or RPGs in general.

They also tell us that there isn't a single RPG out there right now that is capable of doing better than D&D at getting the bulk of these people.
Its sort of like Democracy is the very worst system of government there is, except for all the other ones that have so far been tried.

As much as you'd like to pretend otherwise, there is no secret mass of clove-cigarette-smoking millions who just haven't happened across My Life With Master yet, and would instantly propel that game to 1st place worldwide if it wasn't for the "evil overlords at Wizards"/"Money and the ethnic vote"/"underpants gnomes"/"insert wacky conspiracy theory here".

RPGPundit

Quote from: JMcL63I was just taking the piss. Mind you, I do have to remind you here of the pundit's Swinist nar-deviation: protagonism in supers rpg's. I'm sure he'll deny it till he's blue in the face, but whether he likes it or not he's calling for a narrative-based mechanic that trumps exactly the sort of crunchy goodness he champions in, say, D&D. Don't you think Levi?

My actual thoughts on this would require a lot of space.

I could drag my whole body of theory over here and just show you what I think, if you like, but that's pretty much what it would take.

Quote from: RPGPunditBecause they tell us exactly what has caught on, and to what limits.

The current numbers, for example, tell us that there is a great mass of people out there, including in the supposed target demographics (young males) for RPGs, that have NOT caught on to D&D in its current incarnation, or RPGs in general.

They also tell us that there isn't a single RPG out there right now that is capable of doing better than D&D at getting the bulk of these people.
Its sort of like Democracy is the very worst system of government there is, except for all the other ones that have so far been tried.

Yep.

Quote from: RPGPunditAs much as you'd like to pretend otherwise, there is no secret mass of clove-cigarette-smoking millions who just haven't happened across My Life With Master yet, and would instantly propel that game to 1st place worldwide if it wasn't for the "evil overlords at Wizards"/"Money and the ethnic vote"/"underpants gnomes"/"insert wacky conspiracy theory here".

I prefer honey-roasted cigars to clove cigarettes, thanks.

And, nah, fuck that.  I don't think "My Life With Master" has Shown Us The Way, though I do think it's a nifty little game (much like Katamari Damacy, which wasn't a super-hit by any stretch, but I do love rolling that sticky little ball around).

If anything, I think that the boxed murder mystery games are closer to having Shown Us The Way.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenHis politics in the "warring tribes of gamers" debates are dirty, but so are mine.

I literally giggled when I read this.

I'm sorry, Levi, you're awesome and all that, but just one word of advice: Its really really hard to pull off a "tough guy" act when you have a little cartoon turtle as your avatar.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditI literally giggled when I read this.

I'm sorry, Levi, you're awesome and all that, but just one word of advice: Its really really hard to pull off a "tough guy" act when you have a little cartoon turtle as your avatar.

But I'm muy macho!

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI prefer honey-roasted cigars to clove cigarettes, thanks.

Both are an utter crime against Tobacco.

If you want honey-roasted, buy a bag of peanuts.

Good tobacco tastes like tobacco.

And if anyone reading this thinks that means it would taste "gross", its because you have never, in your whole life, gotten to smoke high-quality leaf, be it humble american virginia, macedonian basma, or smoked latakia.

The powdered shit they roll up and call cigarettes, as well as most cheap cigars (that are flavoured in order to hide the bad quality) have about as much in common with good tobacco as McDonald's orange-drink has to do with freshly squeezed orange juice.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen

My actual thoughts on this would require a lot of space.

I could drag my whole body of theory over here and just show you what I think, if you like, but that's pretty much what it would take.

Yes, well... but you could indicate a general trend of agreement or disagreement with my assessment of pundit's thoughts about what's wrong with all existing supers rpgs, I suppose? Oh, and I've lost the link to your blog. Could you oblige please?

Quote from: RPGPunditThe powdered shit they roll up and call cigarettes, as well as most cheap cigars (that are flavoured in order to hide the bad quality) have about as much in common with good tobacco as McDonald's orange-drink has to do with freshly squeezed orange juice.

As ways to hide bad tobacco go, honey is my favorite.

However, what you say here is true.  Good tobacco is a joy unto itself.

Quote from: JMcL63Yes, well... but you could indicate a general trend of agreement or disagreement with my assessment of pundit's thoughts about what's wrong with all existing supers rpgs, I suppose? Oh, and I've lost the link to your blog. Could you oblige please?

Actually, I think I will drag my theory over here.  It could use the refinement that can only be gained through serious abuse.

Oh, and:
http://the-tall-man.livejournal.com/