Quote from: DevPDon't you mean... Borgstrom-esqe? The true brains behind the conspiracy is revealed!

That's not the strangest RSB conspiracy theory, you know...

When you look at pictures of her, one could start to think she is transgender. So maybe that´s were it comes from.
Don´t understand being secretive about it, though.

QuoteIf the Forge helps you with that, cool. If it's a fucking pain, ignore it and have fun gaming anyway.

That's true for playing games.  Not so true for designing them.

The Forge doesn't help me in the development of my game because the Forge theories are based around a particular type of game, and I'm not interested in doing that.  It's not as simple as just ignoring it -- Forge-philes take it *everywhere* online.  You can't talk about RPG design without the Forge folk evangelizing their favourite theories.  Even when a thread or site says "Thanks very much, but we're not interested in that here" -- it doesn't seem to matter.

QuoteIncreasingly though I think the theory is just out of date, and in part is being kept alive by people vigorously opposing it. If the critics gave that a rest and simply noted that it wasn't useful to them in time better theories would develop, like Levi's manyfold thing for example.

You really think so?  Try starting a thread on just about ANY forum to discuss RPG design patterns *without* having a Forge-phile feel the need to jump into the mix.  Take a look at Story Games -- there's just no way you can say the Forge theory is only being kept alive by people opposing it.

And take a look at Wikipedia sometime -- Forgephiles have been spamming it up with "GNS" blather, even though most of the talented designers from the Forge acknowledge that GNS is outdated, and it's been proven lacking and inadequate for general discussion of RPGs.

If I want to get feedback on the work I'm doing, or throw out some ideas relating to the game I'm working on -- it doesn't seem possible to avoid the Forge theory evangelists.

Quote from: StuartThat's true for playing games.  Not so true for designing them.

The Forge doesn't help me in the development of my game because the Forge theories are based around a particular type of game, and I'm not interested in doing that.  It's not as simple as just ignoring it -- Forge-philes take it *everywhere* online.  You can't talk about RPG design without the Forge folk evangelizing their favourite theories.  Even when a thread or site says "Thanks very much, but we're not interested in that here" -- it doesn't seem to matter.



You really think so?  Try starting a thread on just about ANY forum to discuss RPG design patterns *without* having a Forge-phile feel the need to jump into the mix.  Take a look at Story Games -- there's just no way you can say the Forge theory is only being kept alive by people opposing it.

And take a look at Wikipedia sometime -- Forgephiles have been spamming it up with "GNS" blather, even though most of the talented designers from the Forge acknowledge that GNS is outdated, and it's been proven lacking and inadequate for general discussion of RPGs.

If I want to get feedback on the work I'm doing, or throw out some ideas relating to the game I'm working on -- it doesn't seem possible to avoid the Forge theory evangelists.

In part, I didn't say it was just people slamming it.  There are Forge spammers, no doubt about it, but I think the non-Forgeites also sometimes make things worse.

Story Games has I think been colonised by the Forge since I started posting there, which is why I post there less now.  It seems less a cool place to discuss story focussed games and more a general Forge chatroom.

Thing is, I think the answer to Forge spammers is just to not respond to their posts beyond a simple statement that you don't find the theory helpful.  If they follow up on that, let their follow up lie unanswered.  Answer those who respond sensibly.  Attacking the Forge or the theory will draw defenders, ignoring it just makes the spammers look like what they are.

Quote from: TonyLBWell, I for one can and do.  In fact, I'm not sure that I actually know anyone who either (a) thinks that narrativist play is the majority of the hobby or (b) is worked up about the fact that it's not.  We tend to get worked up about other stuff

I wonder what the "majority" actually is ....

QuoteI wonder what the "majority" actually is ....

Comics and Games Retailer has monthly statistics on the comics and games industries, based on actual sales by comics and games retailers.

It's relatively easy to find the sales figures from Narrativist games (eg. ask the designer or check for threads on Gen Con sales), then compare that to the sales figures for things like:  Wizards of the Coast, White Wolf, Goodman Games, etc.  

Comics and Games Retailer also includes stats on other types of games being sold, including card games and board games.  It's a really good reference for what items are selling well and what items are not.

This isn't taking into account sales from big bookstores, which carry WOTC, maybe WW, and certainly no indie games I've been able to find.  They tend to carry more boardgames though.

This won't give you an answer to what is the game *you* or your friends would like best, or the game(s) that are the best designed, produced, or most innovative... but it will tell you what the vast majority of people in North America are buying -- and by extension, playing.

You know, if every post I made got pulled up and compared to my later positions, there would be many discrepancies.

My views change, my tastes change, I get new data, I sometimes explore ideas and find they don't work.  I posted once arguing that story games were not rpgs but something new, within ten posts I was convinced that I was wrong, would pulling that up really prove anything now?

Stuart, definitely, the majority is DnD and the other obvious candidates, anyone who thinks otherwise is fantasising, but I also agree that knowing that doesn't help at an individual level with choosing the game that's right for a given group.  Majorities are a distraction, useful to know but not of themselves that useful in making your own choice of game.

Well yes, obviously. I was mainly just funning on the fact that that thread with that title was started by the exact same guy in the quote.

QuoteMy views change, my tastes change, I get new data, I sometimes explore ideas and find they don't work.

No problem, I totally agree with you here!

QuoteMajorities are a distraction, useful to know but not of themselves that useful in making your own choice of game.

Yes.  I think picking just about anything you like should be more about what YOU like and less about what everyone else is doing.  My musical tastes are certainly not reflected by any "Top 10" chart in North America that I'm aware of.

I think the industry #s are useful to keep in mind when developing new games though, or when discussing ways to bring new people into the hobby.  (Both of which are my interest in these discussions)

It's why I'm spending more time thinking about the boardgame end of the spectrum than the very artsy / avante garde (I think the designers like "hippie games") end of the spectrum.  I just don't believe the appeal is a broad...

Quote from: StuartI think the industry #s are useful to keep in mind when developing new games though, or when discussing ways to bring new people into the hobby.  (Both of which are my interest in these discussions)

The numbers tell us what current gamers like.

How, exactly, do they tell us what the rest of people out there would like?

QuoteThe numbers tell us what current gamers like.
How, exactly, do they tell us what the rest of people out there would like?

They give no such information.

Some people take this to mean "Theyre just waiting for the right game to come along!" but I think thats a foolish assumption.

Every once in a while (I actually saw this first on Malcolm Sheppard's blog but I noticed similar efforts in a few other places) some genius decides he's going to spread the joy of roleplaying. So he creates a simple scenario with really simple characters and convinces/coerces/or tricks a friend or someone to 'roleplay a scene' with him, thus spreading the joy of roleplaying. So they roleplay it out and at the end he says "and thats what roleplaying is! See how fun and cool and social that was? Won't you join my hobby?" or whatever..

It's ridiculous. I'm almost embarassed for the hapless victim in these situations. Certainly roleplaying can be fun and educational- we use it in training exercises, learning a new language, etc.. but that won't 'make' you a gamer.

Quote from: Abyssal MawSome people take this to mean "Theyre just waiting for the right game to come along!" but I think thats a foolish assumption.

Fair Enough.

Quote from: Abyssal MawEvery once in a while (I actually saw this first on Malcolm Sheppard's blog but I noticed similar efforts in a few other places) some genius decides he's going to spread the joy of roleplaying. So he creates a simple scenario with really simple characters and convinces/coerces/or tricks a friend or someone to 'roleplay a scene' with him, thus spreading the joy of roleplaying. So they roleplay it out and at the end he says "and thats what roleplaying is! See how fun and cool and social that was? Won't you join my hobby?" or whatever..

I've done this several times, though I didn't bother coercing; I just invited people.  We played, they liked it.  They asked about other games, I showed them a few books.

They were, generally, appalled by the size of game books.  They'd visualised, it seems, something more on the lines of eight to twenty pages per game, play it once.

A handful of them weren't, and turned gamer.  Most of the rest would happily come out to play another game so long as that game was much like the first one I ran for them.

I found that really, really interesting, myself.

Who cares what other people would like? I like this. Are you gonna shut the hell up and let me talk about it?

One might say.




I dunno. I think we need self defence classes on how to stop a forgite shutting down normal discourse on your boards.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI dunno. I think we need self defence classes on how to stop a forgite shutting down normal discourse on your boards.

I give you discussion-fu:

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=41461#post41461

QuoteThe numbers tell us what current gamers like.  How, exactly, do they tell us what the rest of people out there would like?

If it was easy to design games for the rest of people out there, it would be easy to make lots of $ and bring lots of new people into the hobby.  Of course it's not really easy...

What the numbers can tell us is of the games currently in circulation, what games are the gamers buying.  It also lets us know what games related to RPGs are selling well.  Looking at those numbers it's absolutely no surprise that WotC is doing more to integrate their collectible minis into the game.  That makes a lot of sense.

Looking at the numbers for other types of games -- Monopoly, Apples to Apples, Carcasonne, Settlers of Catan, Descent, etc. is also very helpful.  

More RPG designers, which are game designers after all, should be checking out places like BoardGameGeek.com.  I've learned more from that site about designing games than any of the RPG theory discussions on any board I've visited -- with the possible exception being some of the stuff over at Dragon's Foot.

Here's another way of seeing what people out there *actually want* -- check the Bestsellers list at Amazon.com for the "games" category.

5. Apples to Apples Game Party Box
6. Here & Now Edition Monopoly Board Game
14. Settlers of Catan Board Game
17. Heroscape
18. World of Warcraft Wow Trading Card Game Heroes of Azeroth Random Starter Deck
26. Scrabble
30. Player's Handbook: Core Rulebook I (Dungeons & Dragons, Edition 3.5)
54. Spell Compendium (Dungeons & Dragons Supplement)
69. Risk
74. Star Wars Saga Edition Chess Set
75. Cranium
94. D&D Icons: Gargantuan Black Dragon (D&D Miniatures Product)