Quote from: Erik BoielleOne of the reasons the hated forgers are so good at dominating conversations is that they tend to use cheap debate club tactics more interested in winning arguments than discussing things. This is dirty pool, and anyone indulging in it deserves to get it flung right back at them.

Being an asshole doesn't make you right or wrong.  It just makes you an asshole.

Ask Pundit, he knows this.

Quote from: Erik BoielleHonestly people, its the same thing that justify the Great Satan saying DnD causes brain damage.

One of the reasons the hated forgers are so good at dominating conversations is that they tend to use cheap debate club tactics more interested in winning arguments than discussing things. This is dirty pool, and anyone indulging in it deserves to get it flung right back at them.

Erik, I have no idea what you are saying here.

And Vampire, he said Vampire causes brain damage.  All he's said on DnD is that he doesn't like the rules that much, which I don't think anyone has taken much offence at.

And while I'm at it, I don't hate the Forgers.  I disagree with many ideas to have come from the Forge.  Not at all the same thing.  Edit:  To be precise, most of them I don't know, most I have come to know I like.  Liking someone does not mean I agree with them on all things.

Posting to say something sucks adds little to life, Space 1889 is a wonderful game and incredible fun.  I want more threads about incredible fun, fewer about how some other guy is evil and must be stopped.

If we celebrate the fun, then to the extent there is any war we will win it.  Happiness is the best revenge.

Quote from: BalbinusIf we celebrate the fun, then to the extent there is any war we will win it.

Not against someone dedicated and who knows what they are doing you won't.

Meh - its always worth realising how people operate - not realising how forgers operate is one of the reasons they get such a bad rep. People don't realise that they don't believe wholy what they say and just know its a good way to win arguments, and so they get irritated or steamrollered instead of just walking away or defending themselves properly.

Show weakness or try to see the other side and you are lost!

(Like you say though, the worst problems are the second tier wannabes who just parrot the propaganda without realising the spin).

It's just a fact - if you want to get in an discussion with a forger you need to understand that the rules are those of a high school debate.

Quote from: BalbinusTony, while you're here, have you worked out what in this thread is supposed to justify the title?

Gosh, Max, isn't is obvious?  The argument is that all Forge people are assholes, because they use cheap rhetorical tactics like overly broad generalizations and ad hominem arguments.  Therefore their theory cannot possibly have any value.

Seemed perfectly clear to me

Quote from: TonyLBGosh, Max, isn't is obvious?  All Forge people are assholes, because they use cheap rhetorical tactics like overly broad generalizations and ad hominem arguments.  Therefore their theory cannot possibly have any value.

Oh, hey, Tony, do I hate Erik?

I can't remember.

No Levi, you have no emotions of any sort, except a grim pride at grinding others to dust.  You will use any rhetorical tactics to that end.  

The theories that you claim to espouse?  You know they're not really true.  But they make good weapons, and that's all that counts, soldier.

Now get out there and make the other guy die for his vision of RPGs!  Go!  Go!  Go!

Sir, yes, sir!

Course, it helps to work in cliques.

QuoteThe argument is that all Forge people are assholes, because they use cheap rhetorical tactics like overly broad generalizations and ad hominem arguments. Therefore their theory cannot possibly have any value.

Actally, I'm saying that using debate club tactics wins a lot of arguments but also a lot of enemies. You can do this with almost any agenda, even ones that are true and that you believe in.

I don't think anyone would seriously argue that The Forges main donation to RPGs are academic debate tactics and good branding.

I don't think the forge should stop doing what it does. I think everyone else should copy their obviously effective tactics.

See how they fucking like it.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI don't think anyone would seriously argue that The Forges main donation to RPGs are academic debate tactics and good branding.

I would.

The main donation of the Forge to RPGs is the constant trickle-down of self-publishing information and kudos; it has spurred plenty of people who have little games into making PDFs, going to POD servivces, and the like.

A revolution, it ain't.  But every single channel of encouragement to small-time guys with their own games to go and print those (and there are several; the Forge isn't the only one by far) strikes me as a good thing.

Diversity creates stability.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI would.

The main donation of the Forge to RPGs is the constant trickle-down of self-publishing information and kudos; it has spurred plenty of people who have little games into making PDFs, going to POD servivces, and the like.

A revolution, it ain't.  But every single channel of encouragement to small-time guys with their own games to go and print those (and there are several; the Forge isn't the only one by far) strikes me as a good thing.

Diversity creates stability.

Er... Levi, I think you misread him. You just argued that the forge WASN"T about good branding and debate tactics. He said no one WOULD argue that that was what they were about...

Quote from: SpikeEr... Levi, I think you misread him. You just argued that the forge WASN"T about good branding and debate tactics. He said no one WOULD argue that that was what they were about...

...Oh.

Shit.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen...Oh.

Shit.

No no, you read me right - I mistyped.

Good games and enthusiasm are the good things the forge has wrought (I'm actually a kool aid drinker rubbed up the wrong way, but The Sons of Kryos and a copy of Burning Empires are far, far better sales tools for you guys than going on to someones forum and telling people they are doing it wrong).

Don't let debate tactics and obnoxious sales techniques be its legacy.

Quote from: Erik BoielleNot against someone dedicated and who knows what they are doing you won't.

Meh - its always worth realising how people operate - not realising how forgers operate is one of the reasons they get such a bad rep. People don't realise that they don't believe wholy what they say and just know its a good way to win arguments, and so they get irritated or steamrollered instead of just walking away or defending themselves properly.

Show weakness or try to see the other side and you are lost!

(Like you say though, the worst problems are the second tier wannabes who just parrot the propaganda without realising the spin).

It's just a fact - if you want to get in an discussion with a forger you need to understand that the rules are those of a high school debate.

Erik, in all this there is only one way to win that matters, and that's having fun gaming.

If the Forge helps you with that, cool.  If it's a fucking pain, ignore it and have fun gaming anyway.

Victory is not piling the heads of indie game designers before me and hearing the wailing of their online fans, victory is every time I have a fun game.

I mean, I'm not turning down piles of heads and wailing fans, who would?  But the point is not winning arguments, the point is fun gaming.  Once you have that, you can hear all the arguments you want and they really don't matter.

Quote from: TonyLBGosh, Max, isn't is obvious?  The argument is that all Forge people are assholes, because they use cheap rhetorical tactics like overly broad generalizations and ad hominem arguments.  Therefore their theory cannot possibly have any value.

Seemed perfectly clear to me

Ah.

Thing is, both could be true you know?  You could all be evil Borg-esque drones in the service of the Ron-mind and the theory could still be correct.

Increasingly though I think the theory is just out of date, and in part is being kept alive by people vigorously opposing it.  If the critics gave that a rest and simply noted that it wasn't useful to them in time better theories would develop, like Levi's manyfold thing for example.

Quote from: BalbinusYou could all be evil Borg-esque drones

Don't you mean... Borgstrom-esqe? The true brains behind the conspiracy is revealed!