Quote from: WillWell, I got in hot water for saying it on rpg.net, we'll see how it floats here...

Hey, I remember giving people shit for this.  Right on.

Quote from: WillIn many ways, Forge strikes me as like religion -- when members convert, it is an amazing experience and eye-opening. And then when they try to explain how wonderful everything is to a non-believer, you get tension.

They just don't see how everything MAKES SENSE, and how your game was saved...

All the same things that make your religious beliefs hard to understand in others, all the same frustration with dealing with these non-believers, all the same comfort in chatting in a group of your comrades who Understand.

Note that I in no way intend to slam religious folks, or Forge folks, by those comments. But the energy and language used just seems rather analogous.

Tent revival meetings, man.  

"Do you BELIEVE in gaming?"

"Do you BELIEVE in making shit up?"

"CAST DOWN your image of gaming, oh, my bruthas, and let it RISE UP again, without the shackles of tradition!"

:rotfl:

Quote from: beejazzYou could say the class structure mimics the quadrants a bit.

Interesting.

Well, honestly, I thought it was a fairly obvious point, too. For me, though, it gives me a certain insight and compassion for their position.

When you are just across a massive shifting of worldview, it's SO exciting and wonderful. And so frustrating that you can't get through to the people back across the gulf.


Granted, I dislike GNS and despise Ron Edwards, but I believe that doesn't keep me from having a more charitable view of Forge-folks. If nothing else, the few games I've bought from that 'end' of things have been entertaining.

Quote from: WillWell, honestly, I thought it was a fairly obvious point, too. For me, though, it gives me a certain insight and compassion for their position.

It wouldn't be funny as an analogy if it wasn't both bizzarrely accurate and completely off-the-wall at one and the same time.

And, oddly, I really like Ron.  He's got his ideas, and if you put him on his own stage, he starts yelling them at the top of his lungs, utterly unashamed, totally not giving a shit if people think he's a goofball.  Much like many of my favorite folks.  What I hate is when people start parroting him.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenWhat I hate is when people start parroting him.

See also Jesus and some of the more vocal members of his fanclub.

I was generally indifferent towards Ron Edwards until the brain damage thing.

Quote from: WillI was generally indifferent towards Ron Edwards until the brain damage thing.

That and the abuse analogy were contemptible.

What really fucked me off though was people justifying it in ways that clearly contradicted what he had said.  If someone in real life told me that teaching someone to play vampire really was comparable to abusing a child, as several people did online, I think I possibly would punch them.  I lack the language for how offensive that really is.

The irony of course is that he did more damage to his own cause than anything else, since an awful lot of people who were neutral were put off by that.

Quote from: WillI was generally indifferent towards Ron Edwards until the brain damage thing.

Didya ever actually read the whole thing?

What he said there is, yes, insulting and nasty, but also very different from what most folks think he said.

My reading of it went like this:

"Trying to force Story from a media not meant for it can fuck up your idea of what a story is, as well as being aggravating.  Conception of, appreciation for, and ability to create Story are basic human traits; having them fucked up is damaging to the mind."

Quote from: BalbinusFor all the theory at the Forge, the actual sales remain very low

Hmm. I kinda get the impression that they have got a method of publishing games that people don't risk losing vast sums of money on though.

I seem to remember that the Heliograph guy who reprinted Space 1889 ended up massively out of pocket frex, and the Children of the Sun guy, etc. etc.(and is there anyone in gaming who doesn't know someone who has run up massive debts running a FLGS?).

Anything that lets people get their game out without it ending up crushing them is a good thing.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenDidya ever actually read the whole thing?

What he said there is, yes, insulting and nasty, but also very different from what most folks think he said.

My reading of it went like this:

"Trying to force Story from a media not meant for it can fuck up your idea of what a story is, as well as being aggravating.  Conception of, appreciation for, and ability to create Story are basic human traits; having them fucked up is damaging to the mind."

I did.

It started with a bizarre assertion that there is a natural human storytelling function, which is highly questionable.

He said that he meant literal brain damage, everyone plays down the literal but he said it more than once and was very clear.

He said that it was comparable to child abuse.

I mean, interpret how you will Levi but he went on to post a follow up thread in which he said he expressly stood by it all.  I think you're innate reasonableness is causing you to find justifications where they don't exist.

Any fucker who says teaching someone to play Vampire is like abusing a child is a lawncrapper of the highest order, an internet fucktard, if it was anyone but him I honestly think you'd agree.

Jonathan Wick rightly called him on that, and if you follow the thread through Ron's only reaction ultimately is a follow up thread to stand by his remarks.

Quote from: Erik BoielleHmm. I kinda get the impression that they have got a method of publishing games that people don't risk losing vast sums of money on though.

Several.

The Indie profit-per-book is very, very good.

Quote from: Erik BoielleHmm. I kinda get the impression that they have got a method of publishing games that people don't risk losing vast sums of money on though.

I seem to remember that the Heliograph guy who reprinted Space 1889 ended up massively out of pocket frex, and the Children of the Sun guy, etc. etc.(and is there anyone in gaming who doesn't know someone who has run up massive debts running a FLGS?).

Anything that lets people get their game out without it ending up crushing them is a good thing.

Oh definitely, the really good thing in the Forge, and this is seriously kickass, is it contains a ton of really practical advice on publishing a game while making a profit at the same time.  Maybe not a great profit, but a profit for all that.

The theory is ass, but the practical support for self-publishing is golden.

Quote from: Balbinus*Snip*

Oh, I think he's wrong.

I just prefer to nail down where I think he's wrong, and how he was being insulting.  It was much more specific than "Gamers are the Eval!"

Quote from: Levi KornelsenOh, I think he's wrong.

I just prefer to nail down where I think he's wrong, and how he was being insulting.  It was much more specific than "Gamers are the Eval!"

Levi, it's like you've learnt internet aikido, every time I think I may have a hold I find myself grasping air then moments later flat on my ass on a padded mat.

Thanks for the mat by the way, it does make it easier

Quote from: BalbinusLevi, it's like you've learnt internet aikido, every time I think I may have a hold I find myself grasping air then moments later flat on my ass on a padded mat.

Thanks for the mat by the way, it does make it easier

Man, in the actual 'brain damage' thread, my statement was that yes, people do occasionally try to get story out of an RPG consensus that's built the wrong way round for it.

In doing so, they get frustrated.  They develop methods to get 'round it.  Those methods simply don't apply outside of RPGs, and thus don't cross over.  Those methods can all be 'put down', as soon as one realizes they don't apply.

If he'd said "D&D has ruined people's ability to appreciate my game!", though...

Well, the normal response would be "Maybe you should have made a different game, then?"