While I love reading a good rant, and I'm all about the math and philosophies behind good game design, I don't actually have much call to post to the Gaming Den due to significant differences of philosophy.

However, I do have to agree with the core conceit that in D&D, and other games with magic, the guy with a stick is generally pretty much fucked in terms of development.  I say this as a dedicated stick beater who well knows the pain of trying to remain relevant as the levels pile up.  

However, this is not an attempt to redress D&D grievances or to bash another forum. I only bring that up to lay down some conceptual groundwork.

As it happens I watch Anime, and while I am generally displeased with the stylistic choices of a lot of anime fare (seriously, I love Ninja Scroll and Ghost in the Shell, almost everything else seems like it tries to hard to be silly or just doesn't care enough to be better than fluff. I'm a harsh judge, I admit...), and as it happens I've watched a fair chunk of Bleach, and I've seen enough Naruto to grasp the concept (Thank you Cartoon network?)

One thing that stands out about Anime of this type is that pretty much every character is a stick beater, and that they all have D&D levels of awesome shit.  

Combined with my earlier point regarding the Gaming Den (and, in fact, the title of this thread!) it may seem obvious that you can't actually make Naruto or Bleach (or any anime type) stick beaters in any incarnation of D&D worth a damn.

Yet, while I personally find Naruto silly, and the every escalating power of Bleach (and the LOOONG detour against psuedo vampires tedious enough to break me) wearying... I do find something of a significant inspiration in them that I have honestly been polishing in the back of my head for a few years now.

The interesting thing, to me, is that for the most part the fighter types in Anime still feel both like fighters, and also like contenders in a world where wizards are possible.

It doesn't actually address the D&D problem (which is, essentially, that wizards don't even need to participate, they can solve the problems by applications of magic that make the ability to do (or resist) damage unimportant. And they are better at doing damage than any fighter type too...), but I'm not here to fix the wizard problem.  

The thing of it is this: In both naruto and Bleach we see fighter types doing some serious bad ass shit. Breaking sections of a city bad-ass.  We also get some complexity, some variation.

Bleach has, more or less as a core conceit, a 'You must be this tall to ride'. No matter how awesome and bad ass Ichigo's sister might be, she isn't actually tall enough to participate. We know who actually matters because, well, they are.

Every 'character' gets a weapon. The default samurai dudes get magic, indestructable soul swords that are as much a part of their character as anything else (and customizable as a result). Ichigo isn't going to swap out his sword for a cooler sword, he's gonna fucking level that bitch and unlock a new form of whupass.

BUt then an odd thing happens too, when we meet the ninja-girls in the Soul Society. They have this whole body of bad ass ninja moves (mudra? Teppo? Fuck it, they got something, okay!) and don't actually have to use soul-swords to play. (then again, the big dude has his arm, so really....). You still have to be 'this tall', but the need for the gadget is deminished.

The thing is: These are totally learnable techniques. Nothing is stopping Ichigo from taking a break from his soul-sword to learn some, er, um, ah... teppo? Shit, now I'm gonna have to watch this shit again.

Naruto has the same thing with badly drawn ninja eyebrows characters who are unable to tap the normal 'this tall' mojo (Chi ninja moves) but make up for it with bad ass fighter techniques (with, again, their own name which I won't even try to guess. I learned my lesson!).

But see: The lack of ninja-ness doesn't hinder them per se, and it seems a general conceit that a good ninja probably knows more than a few tricks from 'alternate power source school' along the way.



Okay, I hear you saying: but what about the dude who wants to play Conan, not Naruto? Really, what is the difference between a fighter who can use ninja-powers to stop time and a wizard who uses a spell to... stop time?

Good question, grasshopper.

You've now run into a major issue with solving the beatstick problem, and the reason I took me two crappy anime series to come up with inspiration.

See: Your conan-esque fighter doesn't really need to be able to do a Flash-Step himself, he just has to be able to fight a guy who DOES have a flash-step without looking like a gimp.  Bleach and Naruto both do this (while, yes, still having a 'this tall to ride' requirement).

See, that's the entire point of the ugly-eyebrows ninja dudes in Naruto: They can't do ninja-magic, but they are mundane fighters bad ass enough to participate.   Ichigo, in bleach, actually is pretty much a 'I hit it with my stick' fighter for most of Bleach (so far), and even his unlocked soul-sword abilities all mostly translate to 'I hit it with my stick moar!', compared to the down and out superpowers of the other characters... and we still have the ninja-chicks who mostly just fight a hell of a lot on a level that makes them tall enough for the ride. (okay, the three touches of death power was a little, but only a little magical. Seriously, Dim Mak has been a part of kung fu lore at LEAST as long as I've been alive.)

So, while I can't lay down a hard smack between a robey wizard nerd of doom and a bad-ass stick beater of doom in this senario idea (though yes, we can get there...) beyond the whole shtick of "I train to hit it with my stick, then I hit it with my stick until its dead' vs "I read a lot of books and mutter at it until it is no longer a threat'... at this stage, I can at least address the 'this tall to ride fighter' who really just wants to be conan (which, yes, includes me. And I like Ahnold as Conan, so fuck you purists who hate the movie. Sideways up the nosehole.)

What I'm about to lay down is merely the outlines of a design philosophy. Attempting to make it the framework of an actual combat/character design system as written here is probably just a little too rough to work. Complexity is actually your friend, my friend.


At the core of it, any given fighter has to be able to fight any other given fighter. Lets keep with D&D's level framework for a moment. If you have flash stepping as a common fighter power (that is, I move so fast you don't see it because you blinked), it isn't enough to slap down 'flash step' as a power. That can seriously become a 'this tall to ride' power above and beyond any other marker, a tier bracket if you will. That is actually BAD (and part of the D&D problem, where flying can 'break' fighters. Fighters who can fly are playing the game at a level where fighters who can't fly just aren't competetive on any level.).

No. The tenth level fighter with Flash Step still beats the 5th level fighter with Flash step handily, but the tenth level fighter WITHOUT Flash Step is still a fair match.

Now, comparative flash stepping is easy: The higher level guy gets a bonus equal to the difference, but how do you make the 'mundane' non-flash stepper competetive without entirely negating the value of Flash-stepping? Or any other cool but somewhat magical fighter ability?

Ah, that is the difficulty. Purely making it opposed abilities or opposed levels have their risks. A tenth level guy should have SOME reason to want to flash step (even if he denies it due to other factors), right?

Now, we COULD just allow Flash stepping to be some 'stomp smaller critter' ability, but that's lame sauce too.

The idea is both that no single power should overwhelm the role of levels (or comparative ability) yet still provide an advantage.

At its weakest, lets assume Flash Step is mostly just a sweet initiative booster with a special effect of 'used when moving, movement can not be seen'... which may or may not have some effect on attacks of opportunity or something. Now there can totally be a mundane initiative booster that gives just as big a number boost, but with no cool special effect.

That is, as stated, weak sauce, and it also makes the mundane defense to not having Flash Step essentially 'having flash step, but not'... and we want an innate reason why 'mundane fighter guy, level ten, doesn't fear 'flash stepping fighter guy, level ten'.

Spur of the moment idea:  One key thing is that higher level characters in most fiction (kung fu movies, anime, conan films....) seem to be more aware of their surroundings simply as a function of being high level (and this is a serious defense against shit like 'moves between blinks' flash step attacks, actually...).

Now, Lets go so far as to say that D&D's skill system is pretty broken but does provide a workable framework to hang a non-broken system on it. As much as it galls me to admit it, the Saga style (and thus 4e) skills that are fixed by rank actually seems to be a step in the right direction.  Using that as our stepping stone...

As a function of being a high level bad ass, all characters have a 'perception skill' determined by their level.  (actual math may vary, also perception as class ability might vary). Flash step either allows a stealth check (or better, functions as a trained skill), as determined by level to make an attack that can't be defended against.  Now the Flash Stepper has an ability that is a credible, but not overwhelming threat to an equivilent but less equipped character. You could just as easily allow a saving throw I suppose.

We now have the framework of a workable fighter power that an untrained, but high level, fighter isn't totally dominated by.  Assume Flash Step still allows bad ass movement and we're essentially done.


Now that we've resolved how they can be designed to avoid brokenness, lets put together a crude framework for D&D style 3e type fighters as our new core.

First do away with bonus feats as a fighter power. Hell, lets do away with most feats (all feats?) and just assume the core feats mostly just fold into the rules naturally. Wizards can make magic shit and do funky stuff with spell slots by level, fighters can power attack or dual wield automatically... whatever.  The whole rule by exception was painful anyway.

Okay, now instead fighters have a list (made up of smaller lists) of 'fighter shit' they can totally learn.

And every level they pick something from one of those lists.

One list is totally 'chi powers of badassitude', which includes things like 'Big fucking draconic sword of doom eats your enemies faces off'. These things can be stacked in tiers of power, but essentially they all are based on how high level you are.

Yeah, everything fucking scales, to some degree, with your level. No more 'well, I got this neat ability at level one, but really I haven't touched it since about level seven or so, its just too weak now'... that's ass.

Another list could be something like 'Teppojutsu' or whatever, where its a straight up (scaling) numeric bonus to something every fighter can already do. This one gives you massive power hits (bonus damage) that one is an initiative increase, the one over there is totally just I-ate-my-wheaties-so-your-hits-feel-like-tickles.... whatever.  Its more or less mundane shit, but taken alone still makes the fighter a guy who can seriously get shit done.

As a bonus, you can seriously fold all the fighter clones into your main class, reducing bloat.  Hell, if you are ambitious, you can make the current incarnation of the rogue into a fighter class too. Why the fuck not? I mean, I'm all for making them a thief again and letting them suffer for not being a fighter in, you know, fights, but makign them another type of fighter works just as well for me.

Sweet fucking Jay-Z... I actually sorta want to see this edition of D&D now. I can see it, two fucking core classes: Dude who really just hit shit and dudes who fucking mumble at shit!

WoTC is still based in, like, Bellvue or something, right?  Damnit, I may have my next career move after 5e burns out!


Now: since I actually have ideas to address at least a few of the wizardy problems that affect fighter types, I should go ahead and spill here anyway.

First, if we make fighters able to hurt shit in ranged combat (either through massive chi-sword strikes (ninja-scroll wind cuts, whatever) OR actually making ranged weapons viable (easily doable) it takes the flight as an actual tier for combat out of the equation. Flying people are targets, dragons have a reason to land and bite'cha ass, and so on.

In the main getting rid of 'fire and forget' spells will also address some problems. If a wizard can either fly OR cast fireball that seriously weakens his ability to dominate combat by just flying and fireballing. You summon a monster to fight for you? Fine, you are essentially static while your monster fights for you. You have an uber spell of doom? Guess what, we've got a long ass casting time for you!

See, none of that actually weakens magic. It does weaken wizards, but not magic.  But I'm okay with that, and I'm willing to accept fanboi whining over it were I ever to be in a position to take their broken ass toy away from them. Seriously: I tend to think the nerfing impulse is the lazy way out to fix problems, but some people will call any fix a nerf, and frankly the play divide is... well... massive enough that it can only be approached from both angles at this point.


-Spike, who is apparently working on his fifth or sixth iteration of 'fixed' D&D now.  He can only conclude that either he is incredibly lame or possessed of some mad fucking genius that is unconstrained by piddly things like 'need'.

Personally, he's running with the latter.

Just an interesting thing--have you ever looked at the D&D Mastery rules in the cyclopedia? They make someone who generally sticks with one weapon very effective, and interesting, without weird hiccups like feats.

I'm rather fond of it myself. Being badass is the main thing: Does the hero feel badass? I've found High Valor does it well since you can choose to do difficult stuff and still succeed. (Taking out three guys in "scene" is possible.)

Quote from: Silverlion;506680Just an interesting thing--have you ever looked at the D&D Mastery rules in the cyclopedia? They make someone who generally sticks with one weapon very effective, and interesting, without weird hiccups like feats.

We are currently playtesting a version of this (borrowed from the OGL Dark Dungeons) for Microlite74. Of course, Microlite74 -- like most other games based on TSR editions -- doesn't have the fighters are useless after a few levels problem that later editions seem to have. With M74 we are testing more to make sure that Weapon Mastery rules don't make fighters too powerful compared to other classes.

M74 campaigns that want flashy combat effects can already use the "Complex Combat Maneuvers" option rules from M74 Companion I. These are great for anime fantasy-style campaigns, for example.

One of the problems I have with giving the fighter lots of mechanical options that the player has to use to keep up is that means the game loses one of the few classes that are easy to play for players who don't want to have to learn to use a lot of rules mechanics to be effective.

I've been having ideas similar to this recently (binary skills that level, powers that are keyed to leveling skills, and wizards that can only do a few things at a time, and special movement stances that would be cool in combat) but pulling a full Naruto/Bleach/Soul Eater/etc. style RPG would be pretty cool.

Thoughts:
Every numeric thing that scales is a skill. Include movement and defenses as skills, and break up attacks to take advantage of diminishing returns (so not everyone takes every attack skill).

Every numeric thing that doesn't scale is keyed to one ability in a similar way.

You get one perk every level. "Spells" and "feats" would both be perks.

Now just have one class (no classes?). Powers require a minimum skill, and nothing else. So your class is just the skills you picked (you can't learn even basic magic till much later, if you're a sword guy).

Use power structure. Not AEDU, but SPU (stance, power, utility). Stances are like duration spells. You can keep two going at a time, but no more. Powers are at will "fire and forget" fare. Utilities take a while, or are social, or otherwise can't be used in a fight (also a good category for some of the earth-shaking magic rituals).

Include a massive damage threshold, and give people lots of hp. Powers deal damage but can do more (like status effects) if they beat the threshold. No-tricks guy can have better damage, but induce no status effects.

Include AoO's and a "teleport speed" movement mode. Avoiding AoOs was my first thought for flash step, but sneak attacking is a good call too. That and it's good for hitting inaccessible terrain.

For that matter, including active defense would be a good idea. As in action types are Main, Move, and Reaction (with the option to trade down, so you can brace yourself against an onslaught, or prepare yourself to smack down an unwary flash-stepper). Reactions could double as defense and AoOs (limiting their use).

EDIT: And don't forget the "detect badass" spell. In a lot of these series, magical (or even just tough) fighters have spiritual pressure or yoma* or chi so powerful that those "in the know" can smell the guy coming. Also there are supression experts who can look weaker than they are and still fight just as well (in some cases this would be one of the advantages of a "no tricks" fighting style).
*probably the wrong word.

I'll admit that my eyes glazed over halfway through that screed, but here's the lowdown: the fighter can do "magic" without being magic.  You just need to fluff it properly.

Flash Step
Channeling your ki into, your movements become a blur against the blaze of your stupid DBZ aura.  You move so quickly from one spot to another that your enemies have no time to react, much less defend themselves against you.

Effect: Swift action, move up to your speed.  If you choose, you may make an attack at the end of this movement with a +2 bonus on the attack roll.

Sprint
In the blink of an eye, you lunge forward, catching your enemies off-guard.

Effect: Swift action, move up to your speed.  If you choose, you may make an attack at the end of this movement with a +2 bonus on the attack roll.

Displacement
The subject of this spell appears to be about 2 feet away from its true location. The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment. However, unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally. True seeing reveals its true location.

Effect: 1 round/level, 50% miss chance.

Concentrated Defense
For the duration of this ability, all attacks against you suffer a 50% miss chance as you exert yourself in sudden dodges and parries.

Effect: 1 round/level, 50% miss chance.

Now, obviously there are some things that can't be fluffed so it's "non-magical magic" (throwing fireballs and whatnot), but a lot of the effects can be recreated in fighters.  Personally, I'm not a fan of activated powers for fighters, but if you're really after them, you can make them.

So many awesome responses... where to start?!

I can't say I used Rule's Cyclopedia, but in the mid nineties I was using 2nd End specializations on a single weapon fighter that proved disgustingly powerful (at 11th level I was doing 89 points of damage a round and had 130 hp, I actually mirrored of oppositioned myself and killed myself in one round and one swing....).

Just doing more damage does help the beat-stickers keep from feeling small in the pants, but its only a small help. A lazy wizard player, unoptomized, can throw down not only lots of dice of damage, but can do it to increasingly massive crowds (and in some cases, toss in status effects On TOP of that...). Likewise, some wizard players can just opt out of the fight and press an I-Win button. Obviously nothing we do to a fighter will change the I-win button problem, but we can increase the lateral abilities of the fighter types as well.

If we wanted to tear down the entire framework and start over (no classes) there are plenty of good models to follow already.  I did like the ideas suggested with SPU, which gives more of a framework to what I was doing than just random powers tossed in there.  And the detect badass does go along with the perception as innate ability I was talking about, and definitely something to keep in mind (And a core concept for a rogue type is, obviously, that they don't register as badasses as easily).

I agree that a simple-mode is necessary, but that simple mode shouldn't also be a trap option. Keeping the mundane fighters in the game by letting them pick automatic buff abilities that give them a full time straight number shot, like I suggested originally, seems like a good starting point. It is definitely something to keep in mind, however.  On the obverse, however: a player who starts out wanting to keep it simple may find themselves eventually drawn to the cooler, more complex options during play. They should be able to add that complexity to their character at a rate they are comfortable with.


Regarding the removal of fluff: As a design tool, I think it is necessary to look at options from a purely mechanical/mathematical model. Fluffless, yes. Really we don't care, at the design stage, that the class we've labeled 'Wizard' can do x and the class we labeled Monk can do Y, we care that one doesn't overpower the other in every situation.  This dude can fly (magic? Chi cloud walking? Doesn't matter, he can fly), so mechanically what can that other dude do to counter that? If not counter, what is his verision of I-Win that the first guy can't match?

But you do have to keep your intended fluff in mind, and at some point you probably should be designing around fluffiness. I believe that if the mechanical balance is too obvious it robs the game of its fun, its 'replayability' if you like (to steal from video game terminology).



After I posted last night, I thought a bit deeper about classes. As a pure re-skin of D&D, rather than a jumping off point for a new game system (and really: Why would I design a new game system that needed to have a fighter/wizard unbalance correction?), particularly looking at it from a post 3E perspective, I think it is necessary to retain classes like rogues and monks and clerics.  People like having those options.

As much as I hate the concept of 'power sources' a la 4E, it does provide a useful concept here.  Dipping back into our Anime inspirational well, we can obviously point out that Chi ability is the primary power source for most effects (universal?), in that it is both a reflection of your level (and therefor a purely fluffy graft onto leveling), and a potential pool for flashy supernatural-but-not-necessarily-magic that your 'mundane classes' can use.  On the other hand, I think that sort of metaphysical framework... beyond just referring to levels by another name, actually hurts the idea of mundane beatstickers, so...

I can then tie this back to my previous, neglected, 'Class Wheel' concept.  Fighters, Wizards and Rogues provide the trioka of power that all classes must be judged in relation to (I believe I referred to wizards as magic based, and rogues as expertise based).  Not entirely surprisingly the ability selection I was referring to works well with this (being simply another approach on the same framework I used before).

I'm gonna think on that for a bit before I get back to it.


Now, to return more or less to my OP.

One consideration that is necessary to keep in mind is that fighter types need to be able to counter magic on some level.  THings like dodging and parrying attack spells comes to mind.

My thinking is that this should be largely a personal thing. Fighter types have mastery of themselves as a sort of unstated core concept. Toss an attack spell at a fighter and he reacts like its any other attack. Toss a status spell on a fighter and he forces himself to overcome it.  This matches a number of inspirational sources, particularly (again) in Anime, but also outside of it.  The fighter is the traditional Hero, and the Hero always struggles to overcome, and often succeeds where others fail.  

Mechanically?  Give extra saving throws? Allow saves where the spell normally doesn't?

I actually tried to address your points in my longer response, but I felt I should get to the gritty a bit here.

Quote from: B.T.;506754I'll admit that my eyes glazed over halfway through that screed, but here's the lowdown: the fighter can do "magic" without being magic.  You just need to fluff it properly.

Yes, agreed.

QuoteFlash Step
Channeling your ki into, your movements become a blur against the blaze of your stupid DBZ aura.  You move so quickly from one spot to another that your enemies have no time to react, much less defend themselves against you.

Effect: Swift action, move up to your speed.  If you choose, you may make an attack at the end of this movement with a +2 bonus on the attack roll.

To steal a term from the Gaming Den, fighters struggle with linear power increases while wizards have exponential (Quadratic?) power increases. A +2 bonus to an attack roll? Seriously? That's not even throwing the bastard a bone!  You're thinking too small!  Unless we start increasing the wiff factor of the game, then attack bonuses are silly bonuses anyway.

QuoteDisplacement
The subject of this spell appears to be about 2 feet away from its true location. The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment. However, unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally. True seeing reveals its true location.

Effect: 1 round/level, 50% miss chance.

This is closer to the sort of lateral power gains necessary, but I, for one, can't think of a good way to explain how awesome (possibly chi-enhanced) fighter training would re-fluff that to look less magical as written.   Super-dodgy training could provide the same effect (miss chance, etc). I'll get to teh round/level bit in a moment however.

QuoteConcentrated Defense
For the duration of this ability, all attacks against you suffer a 50% miss chance as you exert yourself in sudden dodges and parries.

Effect: 1 round/level, 50% miss chance.

Yes, super-dodgy training rather than magical displacement.

QuotePersonally, I'm not a fan of activated powers for fighters, but if you're really after them, you can make them.

That depends on what you are talking about. I hated the Book of Nine Swords and I am no fan of 4E powers. On the other hand I have no problem with fighter types knowing techniques.  Its not just fluff, though that matters a lot (see above quote responses), but also mechanics.

That's where Beejazz's SPU thing came into play. When you slap a round/level cap on a fighter ability it starts feeling a lot like a spell. Its a learned technique, why can't he just do it whenever he wants? (obviously limitation of some sort apply... like being aware of the attacker, etc).

So it is totally possible to learn 'Super-Dodgy' fighter technique as a stance, simply declare you are fighting in that stance and ignore it until you want to change stances.

Now, if that is too much like an activated power for you, I'm not sure what to say. You'll still wind up with a guy who can mutter a few words and turn a dragon into a toadstool... and a guy who is really proud of his ability to swing a stick.  D&D simply doesn't allow for 'stick swinging guy' to make sense beyond some very low threshold of levels (debateable where. I can easily push it down to fifth...), and that makes me and a lot of other people sad in the pants.

Which is the entire point. How can we keep the heroic 'I hit it with my stick' dude in the game to the end?  Giving him crazy numeric buffs helps, and in fact it can help alot, but giving him some lateral options that are thematically appropriate can help even more!

I'll tell ya: when I watch ninja-scroll, Jubei, even with his sword-wind strike, just feels like a straight up fighter to me.  His ability to cut through five or six mook-ninja in mid jump still feels straight up fighter to me.  We can argue about the other ninja abilities shown (or Bleach's massive dragon swords of doom), and thats cool, you do have a valid point... enough of one that I've made an effort to point out that even in Bleach and Naruto, where ever fighter has some sort of super power, that there are competetive 'mundanes' who don't use the flashy stuff... and how I WANT that to remain an option in this pass through.   Hell, within a slightly loose tolerance, even 'two power up ichigo' is still pretty much mundane fighter type.  He's just super fast and can fight in the air (because its anime, and everyone can fight in the air). He doesn't summon huge ice or bone dragons, he just hits people with his sword. Hard.

And I want that. Hell, I want that harder than I want dragon swords (which, really, I don't) or clone-jutsu attacks (which, nah, I don't).


At the end of the day, unless the fighter is capable of slapping down 10d6 bonus damage with every hit he's not even really competitive with the rogue AS A FIGHTER* at 20th level.




*a real, valid point, but somewhat extremely simplified. Argue numbers at your own risk....

Truthfully, wizards could make use of SPU as well. So your "toad" spell can be mitigated by "knock out the wizard and the spell ends." Also wizards can't pile buffs, debuffs, battlefield control, charm spells, etc. all at once. Meanwhile utility rituals could be used to make permanent-ish versions of spells. So you could have stance (aura) based curses, but a voodoo doll making utility could be used to curse a person from across the universe. Maybe even permanently.

4e style roles might be nice for a shonen style game, but I wouldn't differentiate damage output and hp as a primary difference in this case. Here, I'd say that wizards' fireballs are awesome because they hit like 20 people, rogues' powers are cool because they cripple, and the fighter can be a damage soaking meatgrinder (my standard solution is to up AoO capacity and DR for a defender fighter, at which point he becomes point defense without aggro weirdness, but you'll probably need a different solution for bleach-style fights in the sky). Now, area effects might not seem effective in the "all our fights are one on one" shonenverse, but that's a trope that's bound to be broken right out of the gate in an RPG.

Also, instead of power sources, consider themes. So you could use chi, have fleshwarping powers, have shadow-centric stuff, etc. But there's different ways to use them, so there can be both fleshwarping warriors and crazy Dr. Frankenstein mages.

And with a "one thing per level" structure, you can mitigate the strictness of class features. As in some powers could have prerequisite: fighter, while others would have prerequisite: run12.

EDIT: I always forget something. Fighters might actually have status-effect-negating stances. Like not saving throw bonuses so much as "fuck you I am not charmed." Since force of will is ostensibly something these fighters have beyond just physical strength. I can't see force of will working against a baleful polymorph, but what little I've seen of mages in this genre show them using supernatural stealth (countered by extraordinary perception), poison (tough guy hurts like hell but somehow delays death long enough for a killing stroke), domination (countered by willpower), etc. instead of no save fairy tale curses.

Quote from: Spike;506874To steal a term from the Gaming Den, fighters struggle with linear power increases while wizards have exponential (Quadratic?) power increases. A +2 bonus to an attack roll? Seriously? That's not even throwing the bastard a bone!  You're thinking too small!  Unless we start increasing the wiff factor of the game, then attack bonuses are silly bonuses anyway.

Swift action granting a free attack?  You can then full attack on top of that.  The +2 bonus is just a nicety, though I wrote it wrong--it should count as flanking (I was thinking of the rogue doing this to get sneak attack).

QuoteThat depends on what you are talking about. I hated the Book of Nine Swords and I am no fan of 4E powers. On the other hand I have no problem with fighter types knowing techniques.  Its not just fluff, though that matters a lot (see above quote responses), but also mechanics.

That's where Beejazz's SPU thing came into play. When you slap a round/level cap on a fighter ability it starts feeling a lot like a spell. Its a learned technique, why can't he just do it whenever he wants? (obviously limitation of some sort apply... like being aware of the attacker, etc).

So it is totally possible to learn 'Super-Dodgy' fighter technique as a stance, simply declare you are fighting in that stance and ignore it until you want to change stances.

You could also just give the fighter a permanent miss chance (like a cloak of minor displacement) that is on as long as he is aware of an attack.

This is exactly why I like the 4e Fighter (both core and Essentials). I never felt my Martial Striker or Martial Defender was any less fun or less powerful than a Divine or Arcane character.

Tunnels & Trolls is another game where I felt my fighters kicked ass too. Because of the very open saving throw stunting system, I could do crazy stuff (often succeed) and lay down really severe damage.

In OD&D, the fighter does have a sweet niche. Unlike the wizard who has limited spellcasting, the fighter gets unlimited slammage and he gets better at hitting every level. In S&W:WB, they have better saving throws too. And since saving throws are used for skill stuff in S&W, the fighter is both excellent in combat and outside as well.

OD&D has another major fighter advantage: bows. In the RAW, bows are crazy since you can shoot 2 arrows per round. I nuke that, but over the course of a campaign, its doubtful that anyone has the damage output of an archer.

Fighters, in AD&D anyway, get the most nice things.

It's 6 times as likely for a random non-expendable magic item to be a fighter item as it is to be a wizard item.

From the DMG:

QuoteAs mentioned previously, the MAGIC ITEMS table is weighted towards results which balance the game. Potions, scrolls, armor and arms are plentiful. Rings, rods and miscellaneous items of magic represent only a 25% occurrence on the table. This is so done in order to keep magic-users from totally dominating play. They are sufficiently powerful characters without adding piles of supplementary goodies. What they gain from the table will typically be used up and discarded.

Actually, back in BECMI, fighters did get something utterly awesome (beyond weapon mastery). They got to have a castle and lands and an army. Sure, clerics and wizards could also build towers and cathedrals, but really, the castle is the Big Medieval Thing, and it belonged to the Fighter.

And it wasn't just a one-paragraph afterthought, like in AD&D. There were rules for figuring out your income (which assumed you had a map of your lands), for holding tournaments, tracking the local populace's morale and loyalty, integrating into feudal society, etc.. And of course it was all designed to be an integral part of the character's development. It wasn't just an extra bonus, it was something you were expected to use while moving on to larger things like founding a dynasty and questing for divine ascension.

Unfortunately, the BECMI series was always seen as "AD&D's non-advanced little brother" by too many, and support for this kind of gameplay - and this kind of thinking about rules - was cut out of the game from the nineties onwards.

Quote from: Kaldric;507227Fighters, in AD&D anyway, get the most nice things.

It's 6 times as likely for a random non-expendable magic item to be a fighter item as it is to be a wizard item.

From the DMG:

true but ....

Typically a figther can only use 1 set of armour 1 sheild and 1 weapon (at a time) and their effects on game play tend to be very linear - kill things faster, get killed by things slower.

A MU can use 2 rings a wand and a slew of other items and those items tend to have far more profound and interesting effects on game play. Not to mention the Ring of Wizardry , robe of the Magi type items that activly expand wizard power.

Also over an expanding time line rarity become less critical compared to the power of items. Interestingly you can look at this in relation to a CCG like MtG. When the game was designed power cards were rare. It was always thought that a player would only have a 1 or 2 of any rare card. However, over an extended timeline 'serious' players acquired all the rare cards they needed. Now it is accepted that a serious player's tournament deck will be comprised mostly of rares and multiple copies of each.

Quote from: Premier;507238Unfortunately, the BECMI series was always seen as "AD&D's non-advanced little brother" by too many, and support for this kind of gameplay - and this kind of thinking about rules - was cut out of the game from the nineties onwards.

Always a mistake too. It had a LOT of options we see in later iterations of D&D (it had Prestige classes, even if they weren't called that--and did them better.)

Quote from: jibbajibba;507252true but ....

Typically a figther can only use 1 set of armour 1 sheild and 1 weapon (at a time) and their effects on game play tend to be very linear - kill things faster, get killed by things slower.

A MU can use 2 rings a wand and a slew of other items and those items tend to have far more profound and interesting effects on game play. Not to mention the Ring of Wizardry , robe of the Magi type items that activly expand wizard power.

Another thing to keep in mind is that most parties have more fighters (or fighter-types) than any other class, so those weapons and armor are more likely to be divided up.