Here is what I would like to do:

* Classic six ability scores ranging from 3-18
* Roll high (d20) add ability score. Meet or beat DC to succeed. DC starts at 20 and has +5 increments (20, 25, 30, 35 ...)
* Class is similar to careers in Barbarians of Lemuria (no skills, but you can have broad talents or moves)
* Saving Throws tied to the six abilities for reactive checks
* Die-step rather than +/- modifiers
* AC soaks damage
* Hit Points represent actual "hits" you can take before CON damage occurs
* Ability damage (scores can be temp. reduced from different types of attacks)

I'm trying to keep rolls to two dice. So for example, if you are a first level Thief and you are attempting something within your class you roll a d20 + d4 (level) + ability score. Meet/beat the DC to succeed.

If you have a talent or move you can bump up the die. So the thief has a special move and the d4 gets bumped up to a d6.

Opponents/Minions with certain abilities can reduce the level die--but I'd like to try to keep the player to roll just 2 dice.

Class/Level die:

Level 1-3 = d4
Level 3-6 = d6
Level 7-9 = d8
Level 10-12 = d10
Level 13-15 = d12
Level 16-18 = d20

If you want to attempt something outside of your class the second die becomes a penalty. The size of the penalty die depends on the situation.

I hope this is a decent start. But tell me what you think.

Thanks!

Quote from: vgunn;707049I hope this is a decent start. But tell me what you think.

Thanks!

You're designing backwards.  What you need to do is decide what % success rate you want for activities vs. PC type & level. With that in hand you can designate the dice mechanics.

Quote from: Arduin;707083You're designing backwards.  What you need to do is decide what % success rate you want for activities vs. PC type & level. With that in hand you can designate the dice mechanics.

I think I'm close with the DCs listed. It's based off of Die Roll + Modifiers + Base Attack Bonus + Opponent Armor Class >= 21 to succeed.

Quote from: vgunn;707086I think I'm close with the DCs listed. It's based off of Die Roll + Modifiers + Base Attack Bonus + Opponent Armor Class >= 21 to succeed.

Sounds like you're reinventing the wheel here.  There are games that already have this mechanic.

Quote from: Arduin;707114Sounds like you're reinventing the wheel here.  There are games that already have this mechanic.

Not really. Most, if not all OSR games really just do away with ability score and simply have you use the bonus instead. I want to get rid of the modifiers and make the actual ability score matter.

Same goes for AC which your armor type + DEX score. So a fighter wearing plate will be well protected, but a lower DEX score will offset this somewhat. Monster AC can determined by armor + reflex score. So, for instance, a Troll could have an AC of 19 (6 for armor and 13 for reflexes).

Or I go with a AC score which is a measure of reflexes + instinct. Armor just soaks and doesn't make you harder to hit.

Here is the standard formula:  Die Roll + Modifiers + Base Attack Bonus + Opponent Armor Class.

Mine: Dice roll + ability score (STR or DEX), meet or beat opponent AC to hit.

Raw ability seems to outweigh skill much more than I'd normally prefer, on attack rolls particularly. A fighter with STR 13 who is level 1 has the same attack roll on average as the fighter with STR 10 who is level 12. Very slow escalation as opposed to 'zero to hero', and I'd expect stats would have to be point buy to work.
Also, why roll bonuses as dice?

OK, let's take just the first two -- well, one and a half -- points. Standard six abilities, roll d20 and add ability to beat target number. What target number should you roll, typically, for an old-school feel?

Actual old school OD&D typically used a 2 in 6 chance for just about every "skill", with some things being half that (1 in 6) or double (4 in 6.) So, you want three DCs: one that approximates a 16.7% chance, one that approximates 33.3%, and one that approximates 66.7%. For an average ability score, there's a 50% chance that a character can beat DC 20, with the lowest score getting only a 15% chance and the highest score getting an 85%. That's... reasonable, for the easiest tasks, but an awfully wide range.

I'd recommend lowering the target to 15 and saying:

 - double the target for nearly impossible tasks
 - double the ability score for tasks you are exceptionally good at (what you call "having a move", but man, I hate that terminology...)

Now, you don't need the DC increments in 5-point steps. That was unusually fiddly, anyways.

If you compare the average roll for the die step bonus to a flat bonus of +1 per level (as is implied in OD&D and explicit in Target 20,) some levels will do much better, and some levels will never do as well. And it's not linear, but jumps around a bit:

 - 1st level: 75% chance you'll do better than +1
 - 2nd level: 50% chance you'll do better than +2
 - 3rd level: 25% chance you'll do better than +3
 - 4th level: 33% chance you'll do better than +4
 - 5th level: 17% chance you'll do better than +5
 - 6th level: 0% chance you'll do better than +6
 - 7th level: 13% chance you'll do better than +7
 (etc.)
 - 10th level through 15th level: 0% chance... then
 - 16th level: 20% chance you'll do better than +16  

This might be a problem.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;707148Raw ability seems to outweigh skill much more than I'd normally prefer, on attack rolls particularly. A fighter with STR 13 who is level 1 has the same attack roll on average as the fighter with STR 10 who is level 12. Very slow escalation as opposed to 'zero to hero', and I'd expect stats would have to be point buy to work.
Also, why roll bonuses as dice?

At first glance I could see that, however this doesn't take into account any additional talents for advancement.

I do see a problem with only rolling two dice however and need to rethink how to provide bonuses.

Regarding the die step, my thinking was it would make it faster to calculate rather than adding up all the modifiers. But I'm not married to it.

Right now the only thing I really want to maintain is ability score + d20 and roll high vs a DC.

Quote from: talysman;707236OK, let's take just the first two -- well, one and a half -- points. Standard six abilities, roll d20 and add ability to beat target number. What target number should you roll, typically, for an old-school feel?

Actual old school OD&D typically used a 2 in 6 chance for just about every "skill", with some things being half that (1 in 6) or double (4 in 6.) So, you want three DCs: one that approximates a 16.7% chance, one that approximates 33.3%, and one that approximates 66.7%. For an average ability score, there's a 50% chance that a character can beat DC 20, with the lowest score getting only a 15% chance and the highest score getting an 85%. That's... reasonable, for the easiest tasks, but an awfully wide range.

I'd recommend lowering the target to 15 and saying:

 - double the target for nearly impossible tasks
 - double the ability score for tasks you are exceptionally good at (what you call "having a move", but man, I hate that terminology...)

Now, you don't need the DC increments in 5-point steps. That was unusually fiddly, anyways.

If you compare the average roll for the die step bonus to a flat bonus of +1 per level (as is implied in OD&D and explicit in Target 20,) some levels will do much better, and some levels will never do as well. And it's not linear, but jumps around a bit:

 - 1st level: 75% chance you'll do better than +1
 - 2nd level: 50% chance you'll do better than +2
 - 3rd level: 25% chance you'll do better than +3
 - 4th level: 33% chance you'll do better than +4
 - 5th level: 17% chance you'll do better than +5
 - 6th level: 0% chance you'll do better than +6
 - 7th level: 13% chance you'll do better than +7
 (etc.)
 - 10th level through 15th level: 0% chance... then
 - 16th level: 20% chance you'll do better than +16  

This might be a problem.

Good feedback, thanks!

I like keeping the base DC at 20, but could easily do away with the +5 scale beyond that.

Regarding the die step. What would you recommend to make this work better?

I guess the theoretical minimum #number of modifiers would be by building improvements from level straight into the ability scores. Then you're just rolling stat+d20.
Doesn't help much with simplifying situational bonuses or penalties, but you can always apply the difficulty modifiers to the target DC. Or if you really want the step dice I guess a talent/move could add +d4.

Quote from: vgunn;707327Good feedback, thanks!

I like keeping the base DC at 20, but could easily do away with the +5 scale beyond that.

Regarding the die step. What would you recommend to make this work better?

I had to think about this for a few days. I didn't want to make a suggestion that's more about my preferences than your inspiration.

I think if you are going to use the die-step procedure, you're going to need to accept that there's going to be some jumping around, and then try to minimize that by reducing the number of steps, and avoiding the d20. The d12 to d20 jump is too big.

My suggestion:

• No die bonus, or may 1d4, at levels 1-3;
• 2d4 at levels 4-5;
• 2d6 at levels 6-8;
• 3d6 at levels 9-11;
• 3d8 at levels 12-13;
• 3d10 at level 14+.

Using two or three dice makes an average roll more likely, and these average results will be closer to the levels they are assigned to. I suppose you could change the last one to levels 14-17 and add a 3d12 for level 18+.

Quote from: talysman;708851I had to think about this for a few days. I didn't want to make a suggestion that's more about my preferences than your inspiration.

I think if you are going to use the die-step procedure, you're going to need to accept that there's going to be some jumping around, and then try to minimize that by reducing the number of steps, and avoiding the d20. The d12 to d20 jump is too big.

My suggestion:

• No die bonus, or may 1d4, at levels 1-3;
• 2d4 at levels 4-5;
• 2d6 at levels 6-8;
• 3d6 at levels 9-11;
• 3d8 at levels 12-13;
• 3d10 at level 14+.

Using two or three dice makes an average roll more likely, and these average results will be closer to the levels they are assigned to. I suppose you could change the last one to levels 14-17 and add a 3d12 for level 18+.

I've been working on an updated version that hopefully will read much better and will post it up soon!

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;707341I guess the theoretical minimum #number of modifiers would be by building improvements from level straight into the ability scores. Then you're just rolling stat+d20.
Doesn't help much with simplifying situational bonuses or penalties, but you can always apply the difficulty modifiers to the target DC. Or if you really want the step dice I guess a talent/move could add +d4.

Yes, that was my thinking as well.

I wanted to do a Saving Throw for each attribute for my Druids&Doldrums retrohack, but couldn't quite make it work