What is the best not-Tolkien origin for such 'vanilla' fantasy races in an rpg (Shadowrun may not be counted as it's silly )

Old school gonzo, with SF thrown in for good measure. Dwarves are a genetically-engineered clade of miners and/or "heavy world" settlers. Elves are "low gravity" denizens, perhaps a transhuman art-loving and scholarly elite in a lunar colony?

Glorantha. Dwarves are eusocial automata, elves are humanoid plant-life. I know it's old as dirt, but I've only recently been exposed to the idea, and I'm digging it.

...The original myths and legends. That's what Tolkien did, after all.

Well, the canonical "vanilla" fantasy races are themselves derived mainly from Tolkien. What do we have, dwarf, elf, half-elf, orc (or half-orc), halfling--all mainly from Tolkien, but with maybe a bit of Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions conception of elves.

Gnomes are the only one not in Tolkien, and they aren't nearly as big in gaming as the others. Not sure what the initial idea was for inserting them in D&D.

Original myths and legends is a good place to go. After D&D, any fantasy containing "races" was very likely to copy D&D or Tolkien or both. For modern stuff, you'd be best off looking at books written before 1974. But even the concept of "races" in a fantasy RPG sense, meaning people that could be PCs (protagonists), is largely derived from Tolkien.

That said, the SPI fantasy wargame, Albion: Land of Faerie did a fair job of avoiding Tolkien tropes, and they followed it up by publishing a set of stats for the Dragonquest RPG, in their magazine Ares.

I have to say, I never really got the idea of having dwarves, elves and halflings, but giving them interesting origins. It seems like the wrong way round: coming up an original idea, but doing so in order to get to an unoriginal result.

Quote from: Age of Fable;383458I have to say, I never really got the idea of having dwarves, elves and halflings, but giving them interesting origins. It seems like the wrong way round: coming up an original idea, but doing so in order to get to an unoriginal result.

Isn't that just the same thing?

Actually the worst thing I find about the races in D&D (specifically) is the half breed races. It just waters down any uniqueness. It may be 'realistic' but for the purpose of a game, whats the point? Play and elf or a man, not a half-elf. Boo!

I also cannot countenance halflings/hobbits. They serve a purpose in Tolkien's world, but eevn then, beyond that, they are hopelessly out of place. Outside of the point of the story of the LotR and the Hobbit (which is a kids book anyway), hobbits themselves would have never survived.

Oh, of course. Aside from the fact that they can hide so well a Nazgul won't notice them three feet away and being able to aim well enough to stick a dart through someone's eye if they wanted to, they have no survival abilities whatsoever.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;383489I also cannot countenance halflings/hobbits. They serve a purpose in Tolkien's world, but eevn then, beyond that, they are hopelessly out of place. Outside of the point of the story of the LotR and the Hobbit (which is a kids book anyway), hobbits themselves would have never survived.

Yep.  Ridiculous.  Completely unviable as a race, even in a fantasy world.

It doesn't matter. In *every* review of my Book of Jalan, the reviewers did their best to slot the various species of human-ish creatures into the standard slots, when they were not. I think this is symptomatic of Fantasy gaming.  Every attempt by any designer to make a fantasy game which does not include the standards is doomed to failure because the groups will force them into those categories whether they fit or not, by any Procrustean mental methods available. This doesn't mean the games will fail, simply that the effort put into making humanoid species different is going to be pretty much thoroughly wasted. I would bet that if a Fantasy game came out with only humans, somehow different nationalities would be stuffed into those roles. The twin monoliths of Tolkien and D&D have between them so defined the genre that attempts to deviate are ignored.

-clash

Are you wanting mythic origins of the standard or actual origins? Derivations from the norm or what?

In High Valor they are all Children of the Dreamer, the older races (Sidda) being unfixed and dreamlike are shaped by the world and their inborn natures. They start as human-like Elves. In fact they are one of the Kinships or races of Man. As the Sidda age though they lose their early form--becoming more fluid and more fixed at the same time. All the fey things of legend are Sidda. From elemental beings of great power to tiny and raucous raising pixies with dainty wings, who live among the flowers. The names they are given at birth are true-tellings of what they will become, usually. Hence why they don't kill children like the one named Malevolence at birth.


Dvegr were forged of stone when the world was young, they are still at their heart stone. They are massive for their size. The quip: "Hearts of Steel and Bones of Stone," is barely a metaphor for their nature. They sink rather than swim, their origin story has the High Lord (the Dreamer) carve them from stone then weep when the stone was called to life and didn't move. Only after great while did they rouse at his command. Born of stone, they return to stone. Slowly after death they petrify.

Those cover the "vanilla" parts. Different enough but familiar. Strange and wonderful but still human enough to play--though with very different than human aspects.



All are born from the Dream, even nominal "humankind." Just in different ways called forth by the Highlord, the Dreamer, the Lord of the High Hall, the Forger of the World, the First Spirit, the Great Being, Lord Over All . (Beowulf had inspiration for the setting )

The other two fantasy races spawn from the game--one is the explanation for Changelings. They are humans in the setting born tainted by elf magics (Sidhain.)

The other were corrupt things made by the Fane-Lords, redeemed by the actions of man. The troll-kin called Fomoradgh, who once ate flesh from the bones of men, but now are a beast race, who dwell amidst marsh and swamp, and seashore. (They're semi-aquatic, furry troll things.) True Trolls, their cousins and they do not get along, since Trolls remain servants of the Fane. (Although, it is potentially possible for a campaign to be run aimed at redeeming trolls.)



In my make D20 as simple as possible game, Paths of Glory, the setting once was ruled bya godlike humankind with their terrible and powerful magics.

 Dwarves were iron golem's made flesh for war. Designed small to keep them light enough to fly aboard the spellcraft, or pilot them. They are resiliant as iron, but still "flesh" engraved with runes that give them life. Passing their knowledge and history to their sons when they are ready.

Elves were hostage brides and assassins, the perfectly designed magical tool. Meant to be long lived, magically inclined, created essentially as magical "post" human children for their godlike human parents.  A small few were entirely  born as assassins and spies, but most were simply their need for children, and their pursuit of perfection in beauty, and magical skill. A human would marry off their Elf son's or daughters to other lords for peace, or to gain the upper hand against them.

Halflings are a beast people. Descended from experiments wrought by the once human magician-gods and the fallout of the terrible Storms. They have traits of animals. Cat Halflings being the most common, but dog ones (Kobolds), bunny ones (Lopers), and even stranger ones.

Goblins (javalinas), Orcs (hogs), and ogres (primeval/ancient hogs) are porcine, descended from the Storms the ancients caused when they warred with each other. The storms which finally broke the world (and return, on an unknown time-line--essentially driven by the most powerful weapons of war created by the more moral of the ancient magician-gods. A design to keep the terrible war they had begun from ever being possible again.)

Even the "gods" and "demons" of the current ages are survivors of the past. Though none but they know how far back their lineage goes.

Quote from: flyingmice;383510It doesn't matter. In *every* review of my Book of Jalan, the reviewers did their best to slot the various species of human-ish creatures into the standard slots, when they were not.

Maybe if you had the standard races and extras?

Quote from: Age of Fable;383600Maybe if you had the standard races and extras?

Probably would have worked better, but I just gave it up as a bad job.

-clash

Added: Besides, if was interested in doing the standard races, I would have. The first edition of the game had the standard races - all I had to do was let them sit, but i wasn't interested in the least.

Quote from: Silverlion;383589Are you wanting mythic origins of the standard or actual origins? Derivations from the norm or what?

In High Valor they are all Children of the Dreamer, the older races (Sidda) being unfixed and dreamlike are shaped by the world and their inborn natures. They start as human-like Elves. In fact they are one of the Kinships or races of Man. As the Sidda age though they lose their early form--becoming more fluid and more fixed at the same time. All the fey things of legend are Sidda. From elemental beings of great power to tiny and raucous raising pixies with dainty wings, who live among the flowers. The names they are given at birth are true-tellings of what they will become, usually. Hence why they don't kill children like the one named Malevolence at birth.


Dvegr were forged of stone when the world was young, they are still at their heart stone. They are massive for their size. The quip: "Hearts of Steel and Bones of Stone," is barely a metaphor for their nature. They sink rather than swim, their origin story has the High Lord (the Dreamer) carve them from stone then weep when the stone was called to life and didn't move. Only after great while did they rouse at his command. Born of stone, they return to stone. Slowly after death they petrify.

That sort of thing is what makes me prefer more naturalistic origins for the Tolkienesque races.  I don't like gods and cosmology being heavily involved in a setting, so something more evolutionary appeals to me.

Quote from: flyingmice;383510Every attempt by any designer to make a fantasy game which does not include the standards is doomed to failure because the groups will force them into those categories whether they fit or not, by any Procrustean mental methods available.
...
The twin monoliths of Tolkien and D&D have between them so defined the genre that attempts to deviate are ignored.

The "standard" races are here to stay because they're not actually races, but human archetypes.  We have a tribal instinct that makes us want to believe we're all special and different in kind, not just degree.  That's the sentiment behind racial supremacism and the routine typecasting of the "other".

Intellectuals and artists are our elves: obsessed with arcane details, capable of grace and beauty, but physically weak and detached from the real world.

Every nation thinks of its soldiery as tough, dependable dwarves, not prone to change or introspection but admirable for their consistency.

And orcs, of course, are the enemy.  Anywhere people are in violent conflict, they cast each other as unreasonable, implacable and barbaric foes who only understand violence and force.  Just check out WW2 propaganda posters or any Fox News item about Muslims.

Fantasy races formalise those human archetypes into clearly-defined races, complemented with physical characteristics that fit them, which is why humans often seem so boring in fantasy settings.  There's little left for them to be when all the character tropes are owned by races that do it so much better.

Quote from: Hairfoot;383644The "standard" races are here to stay because they're not actually races, but human archetypes.  We have a tribal instinct that makes us want to believe we're all special and different in kind, not just degree.  That's the sentiment behind racial supremacism and the routine typecasting of the "other".

Intellectuals and artists are our elves: obsessed with arcane details, capable of grace and beauty, but physically weak and detached from the real world.

Every nation thinks of its soldiery as tough, dependable dwarves, not prone to change or introspection but admirable for their consistency.

And orcs, of course, are the enemy.  Anywhere people are in violent conflict, they cast each other as unreasonable, implacable and barbaric foes who only understand violence and force.  Just check out WW2 propaganda posters or any Fox News item about Muslims.

Fantasy races formalise those human archetypes into clearly-defined races, complemented with physical characteristics that fit them, which is why humans often seem so boring in fantasy settings.  There's little left for them to be when all the character tropes are owned by races that do it so much better.

Fantasy, yes. Supers? Yes, though a bit less so. SF? Modern? Historical? Not so much. Probably why I so much prefer them.

-clash

Quote from: Hairfoot;383644That sort of thing is what makes me prefer more naturalistic origins for the Tolkienesque races.  I don't like gods and cosmology being heavily involved in a setting, so something more evolutionary appeals to me.

That's odd for fantasy--where gods (via clerics, priests, etc.) Play a part. Tolkien's world is filled with such concepts of a mythic nature--in fact that's kind of a part of the idea of "myth" in entirety is to have stories of the beginning and the gods.