Older D&D had 5 saves:

Paralyzation, Poison & Death Magic

Petrification or Polymorph

Rod/Staff/Wand

Breath Weapon

Spell

New has 3 saves - Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower


Paralyzation, Poison & Death Magic seems obvious to map to Fortitude

And the Wand/Spells seems obvious to map to Willpower

I've been doing both Petrification and Breath Weapon to Reflex, though I've seen Petrification mapped to Fortitude.

My rationale is that the character is dodging the effect or avoiding the gaze, not resisting the actual effect. I've also seen Petrification saves used a lot for traps in published modules.

I'm wondering about the context? Converting adventures?


You probably get the best answers by ignoring the old save category completely and finding an effect that looks the most similar in the 3E rules to get a category (and/or DC).

e.g. All the usual petrification effects in 3E are Fort (cockatrices, stone to flesh, gorgons) so I'd probably use that for actual stone-to-flesh effects. If a module was using a save vs. petrification to represent something else though I'd probably use whatever fit it best - say it said 'make a save vs. petrification to avoid being petrified with fear' , I'd probably go with Will.

One of the things the five saves are meant to do is provide certain benifts to classes.  With class prime requisites as a guide, the five save throws translate to three save throws like the following.

Paralyzation, Poison & Death Magic  = Will

Petrification or Polymorph = Fortitude

Rod/Staff/Wand = Reflex

Breath Weapon =  Fortitude

Spell = Reflex

Here is a full write-up of what I meant, using a 9th level character as ideal.

Clerics have the best Paralyzation, Poison & Death Magic save.  Therefore, Paralyzation, Poison & Death translates to Willpower that is found with either Wisdom or Charisma.

Fighters have the best Petrification or Polymorph save.  Therefore, Petrification or Polymorph translates to Fortitude that is found with either Strength of Constitution.

Magic-users have the best Rod/Staff/Wand save.  Therefore, Rod/Staff/Wand translates to Reflex that is found with either Intelligence or Dexterity.

Fighters have the best Breath Weapon save.  Therefore, Breath Weapon translates to Fortitude that is found with either Strength or Constitution.

Magic-users have the best Spell save.  Therefore, Spell translates to Reflex that is found with either Intelligence or Dexterity.

I would like to point out that "best" is somewhat subjective because at the same levels, some classes flat out have better saves (usually/nearly) across the board.

Quote from: Silverlion;632523I would like to point out that "best" is somewhat subjective because at the same levels, some classes flat out have better saves (usually/nearly) across the board.

Ya, this is what I meant by best: better saves. It isn't a subjective use in this context.  By using the ideal level of 9th in AD&D, the class that I mention as having the best saves for a give save are generally the best at it across the board.  I point to a specific level to make it easy to see that, without bothering with averages. One can, of course find slightly different value comparisons with specific level range averages, since classes gained bonuses to save at different rates.  Do to this variance, it makes sense to use the ideal level of 9th to compare them.  It is just easy to write as a short comment too.  I can provide averages, if one wishes.

Really, one can drop Breath Weapon and Rod/Staff/Wand, incorporating them into the other saves.  However one wishes to assign them, it is that straight forward, since that is the effect of three saves. The class specific bonuses are retained by attribute score bonuses that pair with class primary attributes in the editions with three saves.

I don't think they map much at all, to be honest – I think if you're going to switch to Fortitude/Reflex/Will saves your best bet is to give character classes a more-or-less even progression in all three (to mimic the older D&D save progression) and possibly some class-specific bonuses (say, magic-users gain +1 to their saves vs. any kind of spell per four levels – I've always taken the magic-user's comparatively better spell save to indicate some amount of reflexive counterspelling or magical countermeasures).

Quote from: Imp;632617I don't think they map much at all, to be honest – I think if you're going to switch to Fortitude/Reflex/Will saves your best bet is to give character classes a more-or-less even progression in all three (to mimic the older D&D save progression) and possibly some class-specific bonuses (say, magic-users gain +1 to their saves vs. any kind of spell per four levels – I've always taken the magic-user's comparatively better spell save to indicate some amount of reflexive counterspelling or magical countermeasures).

Using a character from a three save edition with the five save system or using a character from a five save edition with the three save system is a different conversion than I had in mind.  Yes, incorporating one system or the other onto a character is a different consideration.   I was thinking more along the lines of using 3rd or 4th modules or other content with AD&D 2 and older.  One of the problems of taking the 3 save system and grafting it onto the older system is that attribute scores do not rise in the older editions.  The later editions provide a class bonus to the save by that route, because one will naturally raise a class's primary attribute.

The use I was considering for my previous save comparison was that where a module asks to make a will save what that would be in AD&D 1.  Grafting one subsystem to another edition is a different problem.  I'm not sure if the original poster wanted that kind of ideas or not, but I'm certainly willing to entertain ideas about doing that.

Quote from: Kuroth;632626Using a character from a three save edition with the five save system or using a character from a five save edition with the three save system is a different conversion than I had in mind.  Yes, incorporating one system or the other onto a character is a different consideration.   I was thinking more along the lines of using 3rd or 4th modules or other content with AD&D 2 and older.

Ohhh I did not get that at all from what you had written, apologies. I think it would work best if you just took from IC logic instead of trying to work backward from "what each class is good at saving against".

- anything that comes from a cast spell is a save vs. spell, overriding other factors
- paralyzation/poison/death magic would cover most Fort save instances
- petrification/polymorph covers Fort saves vs. transmutative effects
- rod/staff/wand generally covers Reflex saves, except when Breath Weapon does; I'm not sure what the distinction really is except that Breath Weapon is used more for area effects
- your classic Will save is usually a save vs. spell

That is how I have generally understood the "logic" behind older D&D saving throws.

Quote from: Imp;632669Ohhh I did not get that at all from what you had written, apologies. I think it would work best if you just took from IC logic instead of trying to work backward from "what each class is good at saving against".

- anything that comes from a cast spell is a save vs. spell, overriding other factors
- paralyzation/poison/death magic would cover most Fort save instances
- petrification/polymorph covers Fort saves vs. transmutative effects
- rod/staff/wand generally covers Reflex saves, except when Breath Weapon does; I'm not sure what the distinction really is except that Breath Weapon is used more for area effects
- your classic Will save is usually a save vs. spell

That is how I have generally understood the "logic" behind older D&D saving throws.

Ya, this intuitive approach is usually best (now this is subjective ha) for D&D in general.  I know folks like to take a look at such thing mechanically too, and it is an interesting exercise.  When I convert things, whatever stat becomes what I choose and that is that.

Quote from: JeremyR;630764Older D&D had 5 saves:

Paralyzation, Poison & Death Magic

Petrification or Polymorph

Rod/Staff/Wand

Breath Weapon

Spell

New has 3 saves - Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower


Paralyzation, Poison & Death Magic seems obvious to map to Fortitude

And the Wand/Spells seems obvious to map to Willpower

I've been doing both Petrification and Breath Weapon to Reflex, though I've seen Petrification mapped to Fortitude.

My rationale is that the character is dodging the effect or avoiding the gaze, not resisting the actual effect. I've also seen Petrification saves used a lot for traps in published modules.

Depends on the interpretation you have of the saves. There's no one answer to this.

That said, my interpretation would be:

Paralyzation, Poison, Death: Fortitude.
Petrification Polymorph: Reflex/Fortitude.
Rod/Staff/Wand: Reflex
Breath Weapon: Reflex
Spell: Willpower.