QuoteFrom MoonHunter  The last six or so posts are most interestings and if you are just joining us, please go back and read those.  Now, I need opinions and comments based on Posts 13-15 if you would be so kind.  I am still drifting in the project.  This post is just some notes I compiled and an application of the rules

Ships notes:

Galleys are war ships that can either sail or be propelled by their rowers. Building a galley is time and wood consuming. Galleys are the most expensive ships of the world.

Ancient war galleys were not sailing ships in the true sense of the word. In battle their sailing gear was often left ashore or at least stowed away. Many warcraft had no sails, especially if they were to defend their ports rather than invade. Nevertheless sails can be used in an action for conserving oarsmen's strength or allowing crippled ships to break off action.

Being rowed ships, they may make turns that are impossible for a sail ship to perform and may actually go in reverse.



The Bireme is a small, light, fast, ship with two banks of oars. It is the original warship of the ancients.

The Bireme is an ancient greek naval ship that was 80 feet (24 metres) long with a maximum beam length of around 10 feet (3 metres). It was modified from penteconters (a ship that had only one set of oars on each side) but the bireme had two sets of oars on each side, hence the name. It also had a large square sail. This ship was also used by the Romans frequently and were used during the second of Caesar's invasions of Britain. It evolved into the trireme. Often there would be a group of marines and a unit commandant (the commandant was given a tent on the open deck).



The Trireme has three banks of oars, longer body, and more crew than the Bireme. The Trireme became the standard warship of the Ancient period, before the Roman Empire.

The trireme derives its name from its three rows of oars on each side, manned with one man per oar. The early trireme was a development of the penteconter, an ancient warship with a single row of 25 oars on each side, and of the bireme, a warship with two banks of oars, probably of Phoenician origin. It possessed two masts, a main (istos megas) and a small foremast (istos akateios), with square sails, while steering was provided by two paddles at the stern. As a ship it was fast and agile, and became the dominant warship in the Mediterranean from the 7th to the 4th century BC, when they were largely superseded by the larger quadriremes and quinquiremes. Triremes played a vital role in the Persian Wars, the creation of the Athenian maritime empire, and its downfall in the Peloponnesian War.

In length, an average Athenia Trireme was 35 meters (113 feet). The height of the hull above the water surface was 2.15 meters (6.9 feet). Its draught was relatively shallow, about 1 meter (3 feet), because of its relatively flat keel and low weight, allowed it to be beached easily. Ths was important as with all Galleys. These distances seem odd, but the distance of measure for building was the cubit, the distance between a man's elbow and its fingers. (the Doric cubit of 0.49 m (1.6 feet or 19.1") ) Classical sources indicate that the trireme was capable of sustained speeds of 6 knots at a relatively leisurely pace. Modern numbers show a maximum speed of 8 knots and a steady speed of 4 knots could be maintained with half the crew resting at a time.[

The Crew (The total complement or plērōma) of the ship was about 200. These were divided into the 170 rowers (eretai), who provided the ship's motive power, the deck crew headed by the trierarch, and a marine detachment. The trierarch was the captain, usually a rich man who sponsored the boat and paid for the supplies for all his crew. Despite popular movies, most rowers were not slaves. They were freemen doing their military service.


Construction of the trireme differed from modern practice. The ancient Mediterranean practice was to build the outer hull first, and the ribs afterwards. To secure and strengthen the hull, ropes (hypozōmata) were employed, fitted in the keel and stretched by means of windlasses. Hence the triremes were often called "girded" when in commission. The triremes were made of softwoods, primarily pine and fir, with the latter preferred, according to Theophrastos, for its lightness. Larch and plane were used for the ship's interior parts. The large requirements of timber for ship construction led not only to the deforestation of much of southern Greece, but also to imports of timber from Macedon and Thrace, or even from as far as Lebanon. The use of lightwoods meant that the ship could be carried ashore by as few as 140 men, but also that the hull soaked up water, which adversely affected its speed and maneuverability. The ship had therefore to be beached regularly for maintenance.



Fours and Fives are ships almost too big for a standard Greek Campaign. the ancient warships were rowed at different levels, with three providing the maximum practical limit. Thus, the higher numbers of the "fours", "fives" etc. reflect the number of files of oarsmen on each side of the ship, and not an increased number of rows of oars


The Quadreme has three banks of oars and was as long as the Trireme. However, it was much broader giving it more crew space and more weight. This would become the standard ship of the Roman era.

Pliny the Elder reports that Aristotle ascribed the invention of the quadrireme to the Carthaginians. Although the exact date is unknown, it is more likely that the type was developed in the latter half of the 4th century, well past most In the Heroic Age campaigns. However, Mythic Tie is flexible... so you can have Punic Wars or even Alexander the Great.

It is known from references from both the Second Punic War and the battle of Mylae that the quadrireme had two levels of oarsmen, and was therefore lower than the quinquereme,while being of about the same width (ca. 5.6 m). Its displacement must have been around 60 tons, and its carrying capacity at ca. 75 marines. The "four" was classed as a "major ship" by the Romans (maioris formae), but that is neither here nor there in a Greek Game. Likie all Hellenic galleys, its relatively shallow draught made it ideal for coastal operations.[27]



The Quinqreme, the broadest and largest crewed ships of the class. They have a three bank oared ship, but it had a very, broad deck and hull which carried a large crew. The Quinqremes were used as troop transports and as flagships.

Perhaps the most famous of the Hellenistic-era warships, because of its extensive use by the Carthaginians and Romans, the quinquereme was invented by Dionysius I of Syracuse (r. 405–367 BC) in 399 BC as part of a major naval armament program directed against the Carthaginians. During most of the 4th century, the "fives" were the heaviest type of ship, and often used as flagships of fleets composed of triremes and quadriremes. Sidon had them by 351, and Athens fielded some in 324.

The quinquereme provided the workhorse of the Roman and Carthaginian fleets throughout the conflicts, although "fours" and "threes" are also mentioned. Indeed, so ubiquitous was the type that Polybius uses it as a shorthand for "warship" in general.[36]

According to Polybius, the Roman quinqueremes carried a total crew of 300. Leaving aside a deck crew of ca. 20, and accepting the 2–2–1 pattern of oarsmen, the quinquereme would have 90 oars in each side, and 30-strong files of oarsmen. The fully-decked quinquereme could also carry a marine detachment of 70 to 120, giving a total complement of about 400. A "five" would be ca. 45 m long, displace around 100 tons, be some 5 m wide at water level, with its deck standing ca. 3 m above the sea.[13] Polybius is explicit in calling the quinquereme superior as a warship to the old trireme, which was retained in service in significant numbers by many smaller navies. Accounts by Livy and Diodorus Siculus also show that the heavier "five" performed better than the triremes in heavy weather.



The Quad and Quin are actually slower than the Trireme and Bireme. However, they provide more mass for moving cargo and ramming.

There are one row ships, but they were not used for combat.

Ship to Ship Combat is really all about the Ramming and Boarding.

Ramming is the main offensive action of Ancient Naval Warfare. Each warship is fitted with a bronze and wood Ram at the bow. The object is to generate enough speed to slam this home into the side of an enemy ship and sink it.

Boarding: to Grapple the other ship and hold it fast so that your crew can board and destroy or capture the other ship. This is the other, most commonly applied offensive move, as ancient warfare, land or sea, was about the sword and the shield and man vs man. Enemy ships were more valuable captured than sunk.

Note: CORVUS: This is a Roman device which in essence is a Gangplank with a Spike on the end that is dropped and embedded onto the enemy ship. Thus the grapple is very secure and Roman soldiers can easily cross onto the other ship. Quads and Quins are the only ships who can have a corvus, if the time period allows. .

All crews have archers on board. If the crew isn't doing anything else, they can add in. Marines will be ready to do archery.

Bolt-throwing engines: These engines, or ballista, were like giant crossbows. Treat them like archers except they only fire once every other impulse if operated by a normal two-man crew, or every third impulse if operated by one man.

Stone-throwing engines: Catapults are fun for the ocean siege. Stone throwers may fire once in three impulses with a normal two-man crew, or once in four impulses with one man.

Note: Ballista, catapults, boarding bridges, etc. are "nailed" to the deck and cannot be moved from one ship to another.

Action Notes
Fire: FIRE! is the bane of any wooden vessel. The ship begins to take hazard damage which will eventually send it to the bottom. The crew may take an action to put it out.

The FIRESHIP (I guess this is an action): a ship may set on fire at anytime by its owning player and then set drifting towards a target ship to set it on fire. A ship without a crew drifts slowly and only in a 90 angle to the bow (no turning) By sending itno a formation, they must break formation or risk catching fire themselves. '

CREW TRANSFER Special action): At anytime a player may move two of his ships side by side and conduct a crew transfer.


Ship Rules
The Thing rules for Convergence Points are:
Things get an overall level based on their technology or their size. (Ships and Buildings always use size). The ship's importance to the story determines the numberof traits it recieves per level. 1, Extra, 3 Minor, 5 Major (adjust as needed).
A Trireme of minor story importance would be Lv3 and have 9 traits.

Attributes are still applicable.
PHY determines strength of hull
DEX determines manuverability of the ship
MEN determines the ships perception and communication (inside the ship).
EMO Lock trait usually
MPY Locked trait usually, but some ships have supernatural edges
CHA Defines the reputation and psych impact of the ship

There are traits that modify these stats.
Practiced might be one for MEN, improving command speed and accuracy.
Fearsome traits, CHA.



There must be Row of Oars Trait per level. These determine speed and such.
**Extra Oars (in supply) is a trait.
**Extra Oarsmen is a trait, should they be lost to damage
**Strong Backs Faster Oarsmen
Galley Rigging One trait per size, allowing for long distance.

Lower Draft
Higher Draft

Tiller Strong (more manuverable)
Tiller Weak (less manuverable)

Stronger Hull
Weaker Hull
RAM (each level up adds an extra +1d6 ship damage).

Extra Crew
Skeleton Crew
Crewman Skill +1 Level
Crewman Skill -1 Level

Archers
**level plus and minus
Balista
**level plus and minus
Catapult
**level plus and minus

Greek Fire Lesser (useless really)
Greek Fire Greater (useful)

Marines (epibatai): Men whos job was to be in armor and fight. These people often doubled as oarsmen or crew much of the time. Their numbers are usually 10-20. At the Battle of Salamis, each Athenian ship was recorded to have 14 hoplites and 4 archers (usually Scythian mercenaries) on board. The Atheneans, with their superior crews favored speed, manuverability, thus prefered to ram. Other navies prefered to board, so their military might could make up for their lack of seamenship.

Flat Design (for Quads and Quigs) Two for Quads and Four for Quigs. his makes the ship wider. It allows for more crew to be "on deck" at one time. These are usually marines, but space for more weapons were possible.

Corvus

So A Minor Trireme Type, Kind, Milieu
The Blue Pegasai - Trireme Galley of the Greek City State XXXXXX
Of the Oars x3
Galley Sails x3
Marines (superior soldiers)
Tiller Strong
Superior Crew x2, but only under Captain Xerkes (If he can not give the orders, they drop to normal rating).

If it became more important, it would have six more trait slots

Perhaps of the Oars comes with the Kind aspect? BEcause an extra craft of the City State XXXXXX's fleet would not be able to mount sails, having required oars. Perhaps one per Mast? That would let a compliment of marines be onboard?




Footnotes:
The penteconter, alt. spelling pentekonter, also transliterated as pentecontor or pentekontor (Greek: πεντηκόντορος, fifty-oared) was an ancient Greek galley in use since the archaic period.

The penteconters emerged in an era when there was no distinction between merchant and war ships. They were versatile, long-range ships used for sea trade, piracy and warfare, capable of transporting freight or troops. A penteconter was rowed by fifty oarsmen, arranged in two rows of twenty five on each side of the ship. A midship mast with sail could also propel the ship under favourable wind. Penteconters were long and sharp-keeled ships, hence described as long vessels (Greek: νῆες μακραί, nḗes makraí). They typically lacked a full deck, therefore they were also called unfenced vessels (Greek: ἄφρακτοι νῆες, áphraktoi nḗes).

According to contemporary calculations, penteconters are believed to have been between 28 and 33 meters long, approximately 4 meters wide and capable of reaching a top speed of 9 knots (18km/h). Ancient Greeks also used the triaconter (also triacontor, Greek: τριακόντορος), a vessel with 30 oars. There is a general agreement that the trireme, the primary warship of classical antiquity, evolved from the penteconter via the bireme. The penteconter remained in use until the Hellenistic period, when they became complemented and eventually replaced by other designs, such as the lembos, the hemiolia and the liburnians.

These ships were the civilian vessels of In the Heroic Age.

Martial Arts and In the Heroic Age

The Warrior is the Ideal Archetype in Greek Society.  Thus the master warrior is the ideal everyone wishes to aspire to.

The Greeks were the first Europeans that developed a true Martial Art Pankration.  So, yes there is a martial art to learn here.

Myrmidons had their own special way of fighting that was extremely effect and encompassed all the aspect of what we  now consider a martial art (inner and outer aspects, various styles).  

Build Comments
In this context, Martial Arts would the combat beyond what we normally expect in combat (attack, parry, dodge, and maybe aimed shots).   Martial arts would allow for a specific emphasis or tactic set in combat.    So I learned Mymidon Art III, which gives you a bonus for a leaping, extra offense for the leaping attack, and a little extra defense as you are leaping.   Myrmidon Art II might be a technique that uses a parry/strike combo. And so on.  These are just loose examples, but they are there to give you an idea

So it would add more strategy in combat, as combatants could take a "strategy" for a turn and impliment the various combat actions available tot them.  More complexity than normally allowed in BRB combat for example, but more in line to a martial arts game using Hero or Gurps.  [/i]

Okay, so nobody voiced an opinion on some of my questions above.

I am inclined to go with Skill Option B - Major Only Plus.
Yes, it does mark this game as a "simple game"...
But....
It is still 100% compatable with other Skill/ AoE lists.
This is the fun, simple view of Greek Myth. This goes with that theme.

I really like the Greek Gods as Skill Areas listing. I am going to include that as an option, for those who "want more" from their game (and don't plan on Waundering).



Who are the Characters in Of the Heroic Age?                               .
In an alternate world, your characters are Mythic Greek Characters that are boring people to tears in a Classics Class. Your names are in the Bullfinch's index. Your characters are the ones in the stories that people know. Jason? Who? Hector and Achilles? Nah, never heard of them. Hercules, okay.. he might be around.

In this setting, the only Heroes that count are your characters. Your adventures get to be in the Myths. Your characters are the one that are played with by the Gods. Your GM sets up situations where you can be heroic: saving the princess, leading the warband, defeating the cyclops, and so on. You are the New Myths, the real myths have no hold on you.

Your campaign is free of any constraints. Pick and choose the elements you want for your campaign.

Sure some of those other guys might be around (that is up to the GM and how much Bullfinch's is pulled). However, they are either in the background doing things (elsewhere) or might be NPCs for your group. It is really up to the GM and how much research they want for their game.

Do not be restrained by History either. Want a Persian Invasion early on, sure. Want an island city being destroyed by Volcano. Sure? Want a Trojan war with a totally different cause? Okay. Want Agamemnon to unite all of the Greek Cities into a super state? Okay. Want to have a rebellion against him, okay. Recent History needs to be incorporated into character's conceptions. Just give them a quick history of the last decade or two and go on and play.

Do not be restrained by Reality: You all met on a boat rowing against the Tyrant Zerkos who is enslaving several city states with monsters and magic? Okay, go with it. If that was 10 years ago and you are the survivors of that battle who are investigating his possible return... go with that.

Do not be really restrained by geography either....
If you want that island city just off the coast of Athens, sure. (And you can have characters from there too.)

This is a setting "inspired by" The Classic Heroic Era. You can run a historical simulation if you want. We will not stop you. Just make sure your players are up to speed in their Classics and Greek History. However, this game is here for a Greek Myth game as written by the Adventure Pulp Greats (Borroughs and Doyle).

Does anyone have any questions or comments or opinions on any of the questions I have posed in the earlier thread?[/u][/i]

I have a couple of people on another forum who are thinking that a bronze age game is "Great". (Someone thinks this is just like Runequest. I am not sure he has ever played RQ, but we move on). My last post helped clarify things. A lot of historical games are avoided by gamers because they don't like to be constrained by "The way things happened". They don't like the fact they can be trumped by someone else who pulls out a non game book (or studied up) with how things are. You are liberated from all that with Of the Heroic Age. (Heck should I call the game that? An Inquiring Mind want to know. ) So this para-greek game is running loose and letting you be the heroes. We will see how this goes.  

I am getting some good Greek mythos information on another board.  When the bits and pieces become more coherient, I will post them to this thread.

I have moved past the post on 07/15. Still having core rule issues, but still working on this along the way.  I managed to write about 40 lines today instead of the stuborn 8.  I am plugging away at the middle rules.  I want to get them mostly done rather than run on and leave them "undone" and finish power, meta, lifeform, and things.

It is all Greek to me

"I don't know anything about Ancient Greece",  Despite your protests, if you live in a "western country", you know a great deal about Ancient Greece, more than you think. You just don't know it. You just need to just remember that you do know it.  (And you can thank Socretes, a Greek Philospher for that bit of wisdom).  The Greek world will seem familiar, even if you don't realize it.

**Greek Myths, their heroic tales, serve as the foundation for the structure of our stories today, and serve as the foundation for adventure literature – a genre near and dear to our gamer hearts.  From this rich combination of tales has come the adventurous tales of the Dime Novels, Pulps, Comics, Movies, and even role playing games.

**Greek Language has donated a lot to the velcro that is English, and other languages. Greek roots and words are again the foundation for many of our words.  The rule of thumb here, is if it sounds like it, it is related.  Polis – the Greek word for "Political Body", Policy, Politics, and well you see the trend.  Scientific words and many descriptive words use Greek Roots.

**Metaphors – there are many catchy turns of phrase that populate English (and some other languages) that originate from the Greek.  "And now the Chorus".  Beware Greeks bearing gifts.

**Democracy

*Logic and Math, in Western Culture all come from the Great Greek thinkers.  Well it maybe you won't recognize that, but trust us it is true.

So lurking behind what you know there is some Ancient Greek hiding there.


This or something like this will be in the booklet.  I have a lot of "asides" like this.  Part of the reason for it is that people need coaching about the setting. Part of the reason is for them to overcome any reservations they might have when dealing with such a "historical" or "school related" subject.  By making it fun, and easy, people will be more willing to play the game (and then realize that Greek History really isn't that scary).

I have been writing bits and pieces of the project.  It again is in that, I need to research and develop that, phase.  All the fun parts, rules tinkering and shiney new ideas, are all done.  Now it is just putting enough details and data s you can all use it.  

Aside: When I finish the archetypes, I will post that up...

My problem with this write up seems to be creeping elegance.  There is so much I want to add, so much detail I think will be usef, that I am loosing my way on the project.  

Take the Ship Post up above.  

I started with some nice simple paragraphs.  Then I kind of dove in too deep with detail as I found out more about Hellenic Naval activity.  

I need to put a break on this and keep the game light and simple.  Yet, not too simple.  If it stays too simple, there won't be enough meat in the project to keep people interested or make them see the value in the piece.

I.E. is it worth buying the PDF to play this, since  could with a little research just do it myself.

See setting sections can be done by a passable GM.  The advantage of someone else doing it and putting it together is the hundred or so hours to make this happen can now we spent gaming instead of setting stuff up.  

I need to find a way to keep a lean amount of flesh on it and still keep it kicking.

I am answering a question that someone had.

Citystates, Islands, and Empires will use Convergence Point's Thing System for lands. Let us sumarize it.

Everything still has a core trait of Type, Kind, Milieu.
Mekros, a Trade .. City ... of the Greek Peninsula in the Heroic Age.

The system shows all the "key features". The number of key features based on both its size and its "cast level" (extra, minor, major).

So a small minor city would be Lv2 and 3 features per size. So it would have six features.
a Minor city that was huge Lv5 and 3 feature per size 15 features.
A Major City (one that the campaign revolves around) of moderate size (Lv3) It would be 15 features. Lots of extra details.

Everyone will have implied features, so it will have some roads, some farming, some industry. Unless there is a flaw for the land, it will have the basics.

There should be a listing of "common features", some of which will get pulled from the base system.


Surrounded by Vinyards
Surrounded by Olive Orchards
Surrounded by farms
River
Good Harbor
Defensive Harbor
Ship Yards (notable for building ships)
Woods (Wood Resources)
Mines
Known for its Bronze Work
Known for its Pottery
Gymnasium of note
School of ...
Temple to (There are temples to every god, this is a "Great Temple" that is quite notable)
Home of Famous Philospher
Home of Known Sorceress
Home of Known Hero
Famous city walls
Defensive cliffs
Built on Hills
Known for Archers (all archers get bonus)
Army Units
Heavy Army Units
Archer levies
Fleet
Trading center
A specific trade route
The Village of Kerros (Kerros would be its own minor city/village.. so it would have its own six key features (scaled for a village - so it might have a famous shrine, an ex-hero, known for its grapes, have beautiful women, and was the site of a great battle).)
Historical Note: Great Battle was here, Known for where Zeus touched someone.

I would need to spin this for the greek setting, but it would work with the generics


So my Minor city Merkos 6 features

Good Harbor (Ocean Front)
Good Fishing
Shipyards
Temple to Posidon
On the Trade Route to Athens
Massive Pottery yards (thus it does not make quality, but makes quanity of Amphoras and such).

Anything else would be a detail, inside that. There is probably a temple to Venus, but it is a small things when compared to the Temple to Posidon. There is a market place, just not anything special. You could break down neighborhoods as features... or make neighborhoods the same way.... but you see how that would work.


Flaws would be limits. Add more features. So I might have a city with reduced food production, but since it is a trade center, food from trade routes. (Thus creating a dramatic point for the city, choke the trade, starve the city).


Some of these would show extra limits. Some would grant pluses to any determination roll and so on.

Now an Empire would have a scale issue, I think we are going to avoid this normally. However, it uses the same thing at larger levels .

So you can short hand a city state or island with some of the key features, eventually doing a formal write up.

A more advanced system could be in place with
Kind - City (defaults)
Type - Type of city (features)
Milieu - locations
just like characters.

It would have a level and developing pieces, and possuibly expanding pieces. It gets complicated. However the Basic Thing System sort of mashes these together.

Kinds are assumed things. Type is a little harder to express.. but would be more of the same sort of one trait features. Milieu would be the same. It would just require things to be writted up differently.


PS TO SELF: You might have to make up some Key City's like Athens or Sparta... always Lv 5, yet they may be of different importance to the campaign. In some campaigns, Athens is a minor players, in others major, and in Jason and the Argonauts it was an extra...

QuoteFrom Celedor, who asked the logical question.....

I assume that even with randomization, there would be some "Kick it" logic. . .like contradictory features/flaws, or a feature that doesn't fit properly, like a famous port in an inland town that's not on a river?

Most of the text will have the requirements for a given element.  

Water is required for a good port. Thus it could be a river, on a lake, or on the ocean.

Most of them have a logic, but we all know there are people who will do anything just because they can (and think it is funny).  

I am not include a random system. I am targetting 36 elements (or 33 with three that will "cascade" in many). Each will have a tiny d66 number by them (11-16, 21-26, etc to 66).  Howevever I am not advertising it as a random select (as random can be quite silly). However, you will be able to use the d66 if you need inspiration.

QuoteCeledor the info above is so dense it's hard to comment on

and it's still fairly sparse

The world building elements are things that people should be thinking of. The Core Rules include rules on how to build everything you actually need, just that fast. By making them fast and easy, you make sure they are used.

Most of the writing is fairly sparse because I am not sure everyone wants to see the paragraph or two on Triremes, or The Polis concept, or The Marketplace.  Now I am mostly writing the "boring sections", you know the ones the GM has to know, the ones the PCs should know, but won't read and expect you the GM to explain them.


If there is anything you want to know, I can post it up.  

I really need to re do the Archetypes for the Milieu.  I truly overwrote them.  I need to work them back some, then put it in.

This project is actually kind of strange.  Normally speaking, the main text is mostly serious and focused, with sidebars occasionally falling into the snarky.  The writing tone for this project is "we are not taking ourselves too seriously". So now I get to be snarky in the main test and have to be serious in the sidebar.


Note to self, Market Place Die Roll or "This is not The Supermarket".

There is no mass production. There is no standardization of prices. In fact, the price for everything is what the merchant thinks they can charge you.  If they like you, you pay less. If you they don't, you pay more.  Sure you might get a better deal across the market, if you want to walk that far....

To some degree there will be haggling about every price. (In fact, one would be hard pressed to find a Greek that didn't like to haggle.)  For items of note, there should be an actual haggling roll (CHA+CMU) or a contest of rolls.  You can then work negotiation points into the contest rolls.

Please note that the Greek Milieu trait gives everyone some skill with oratory and bargaining.  Thus every character will have a CHA roll, with Greek as their trait, for the bargaining roll.

Aside (to a side bar): You can get really into by using an analog combat. Negotiation is a social combat. Combat rolls being CHA+CMU, impairment points through being concessions you have to make to the deal. Combat actions/ tactics would modify either the die rolls or the R#s.  And there is more, but do you really want to do it this for this game?  Nah... but it is just an idea for you.
ASIDE TO READER of THIS BOARD/ HERE:  Analog combat is found in the Convergence Point Core Rules.  Poker and Social/ Political conflict are shown as how to use something like the tactical system for these conflicts.   Golf is also an analog combat (if important enough), using more tactical rules to actually do shots and points.

However, nobody wants to actually haggle out every time they go to the market for some pita and cheese.  You can just hand wave it, and make they pay regular price. However, what would be the fun in that?   You can do a little roleplay scene with the results determined by a roll.  

Rather than make a bunch of rolls for every item, take the shopping total and roll 2d6.  

0-3    +20%
4-5    +10%
6-8 Base Price
8-10  -10%
11+   -20%
Roll a decision die (1d6) to adjust this up and down by a few tiny coins.

Modifiers could be made for
*social standing (working against you, as you can obviously afford to pay more AND the time and work of haggling for less is not worth your time).  
*+1 Actually having Bargaining Traits
*+1 Common item in season or in production.
*-1 Off season or in times of trouble.

If it a really common set
0-4 = +10%
5-9 = base price
10+ = -10%

MH,
  Well, a couple of things pop right out at me:
1) Quit saying you are not going for historical accuracy. People who want historical accuracy will expect to be disappointed.And everyone else will learn as they go.
2) Man, you really have to decide what power level you are comfortable with. No super powers and xena/Hercules are not compatible. Greek myth is filled with super powers. I don't realy have a preference which way you ultimately go, but you do need to pick a direction and stick to it.
3) Always good advice: Make the game that you yourself personally would want to play. It will facilitate playtesting, marketing, sales and making sound design decisions.

  The only thing that struck me as odd was a comment that there were not many horses. I thought the era immediately preceding the bronze age was filled with nomad, hunters and gatherers. It seems to me that the hunters would leave plenty of horses, etc. around and that the nomads would be breeding them like rabbits. I know that agriculture is still new, but thatmeans that there would still be herds of wild horse all over the place, right?

  Also, never define a game by what it is not. It comes across too defensive and/or negative.

  Either way, it sounds like you really love this setting. Making mechanics for it should be a real joy for you,good luck man!

Quote from: dindenver;3226511) Quit saying you are not going for historical accuracy. People who want historical accuracy will expect to be disappointed.And everyone else will learn as they go.

Actually I am saying it in a few places so people who are expecting 100% historical will not be expecting it.  In actuallity there is a great deal of accuracy in the Greek Culture presented, I am "giving permission" for GMs to take liberties with Greek History and Events (and Geography). This is much the same way most GMs take liberties with European History when playing a Feudal Europe game. The themes and ethos will be "right", the details will be all be less than correct.   This is not a Greek Game, it is an Inspired by Greek Mythology game.  

To quote the first page....
This is Greece re-imagined by Doyle or Burroughs - Simpler, More Dramatic, and only roughly historically accurate. (Or Think a Greek Hollywood Movie) So we will have a bigger Greece, more islands around it and in the Inner Sea (analog of the Mediterranean) that are Greek or Greek like/ related, and a few other cultures hiding out there (Celts, Egyptians, and some of the middle eastern countries.) This way Greek Myth (and limitedly, history) can be an inspiration for the game, the GM can pick how much historical/mythic accuracy they actually want to use, and the GM and the Players don't have to feel that they need to become experts in Greek History to play the game. As someone here says, "All Hisorical Games are Alternate History as no timeline surives contact with player characters." Now the player characters can be "the big important players" in some situations.


The sidebars in the text will be mentioning when we are deviating from the expected.

If you want historical accuracy, you can have it.  You will just to need to impliment it on your own.  (Mythic Powers and monsters vs Historical Accuracy... there is a disconnect).

Quote from: dindenver;3226512) Man, you really have to decide what power level you are comfortable with. No super powers and xena/Hercules are not compatible. Greek myth is filled with super powers. I don't realy have a preference which way you ultimately go, but you do need to pick a direction and stick to it.

Who said I am not having super powers?  Not me.  Greek Myth is full of low powered heroes. They are low powered when compared to modern comic book heroes and games. (Hercules being the actual acception).  Convergence Point was orignally designed as a Modern SuperHero game with transdimensional elements. So the Greek Characters Metas will be "scaled down" when compared to their modern meta hero counterparts, (on par with or just under powered when compared to Pulp Heroes).  

Quote from: dindenver;322651The only thing that struck me as odd was a comment that there were not many horses. I thought the era immediately preceding the bronze age was filled with nomad, hunters and gatherers. It seems to me that the hunters would leave plenty of horses, etc. around and that the nomads would be breeding them like rabbits. I know that agriculture is still new, but thatmeans that there would still be herds of wild horse all over the place, right?

Different places, different resources.  Agriculture has been in Hellas for quite a long time, as had herding.  There are horses in the farthest north of Hellas, but there are very, very few of them in the rest of Hellas. (Horses, ships to islands, these don't mix well.)  The nomads were the uncultured people (to the Greeks anyways) to the North of Hellas (Celts).  

Quote from: dindenver;322651Also, never define a game by what it is not. It comes across too defensive and/or negative

This blogish post may define it as "negatively", but the game does not. The appology paragraph is the only real negative in the entire text and it is just that... a backhanded appology, making sure people know what is going on.

Am I evil if I say to you, the thread reading public, the primary resources for my research are Children's Books?  

I am "just" fluent in the Classical Greek era. (okay, really I am just rusty.. but at my age.. rusty is a common problem).   I want the project to be light in tone and detail. (Again, The Heroic Greece of Hollywood or the Pulps).  

I have been hunting things down on Greek Culture, Society, and Myth. (A bit of history too).

Childrens books are great as they hit "the highlights" of the subject, with occasional points of serious detail.  They tend to be story/ example orriented, which makes it easier for one to retain. And they have all these great pictures. (Reminder to self.. hunt down clip art and maybe an artist).

They can serve as a foundation for the project itself and direct me to what I will need to research.  

Also, as a game master, if I have them around, I can literally toss them to my players and say, "here".  It will take a player just a minute or so to absorb something, and move on.  In fact, I think I will recomend you have a couple around the table, "just as a game aid".

(They are remaking Classic Myths as Graphic Novels... might be handy material for gamers as well_).


Aside: Have you looked at DK books recently? http://us.dk.com/  OMG, if these were available when I was younger I would of forced my parents to buy me all of them.  (Yes, I was that kind of kid).

MH.
  No, that is not evil. In fact, that should be your intro...
  I am more excited about your game now that you have posted this then anything else in this entire thread...

Sometimes, life does interfere with gaming. I know, I know, I just took two points against my Gamer's License. My youngest child won a trip to Disneyland for his birthday. (Try saying NO to a child who truly knows he has a trip to The D, despite having to shell out for the brother and one other parent.) That was this last weekend (which coincides with one of our local game cons - sorry Serenity Crew). So driving/ flying, lots of walking, and no time to write.

The other thing is the conversion to a new computer system at work (large hospital with trauma center). I am "the guy" for my department - the super user. I get to fill in all the gaps between the lovely training and the system build that was finished about 2 minutes before go live. It seems we are the beta testers, live testers. Needless to say, I have been holding the computer semi-literates' hands, filling out system error reports, and actually trying to do work in an environment that is more dysfunctional than usual.

Needless to say, my last three weeks have been at a pace that has broken my life. I have managed to spend a little time outlining some of my core rules. I have yet to get over to the library for some additional research for Of the Heroic Age.

In fact, this post, is the sum total of writing for today.

Still stay tuned, I might post something interesting soon.

If a friend of mine hadn't discussed how Gods in fantasy games don't seem interact with people/ characters like they do in the Greek Myths, even through in fantasy games they are presently more active (clerical spells and direct oppositional beings), I would not of worked out the mechanics that we have a few pages back about divine ratings (persona ratings with a few extra mechanics. )  Thus the Great Mechanical Stumbling block to Greek Mythic Gaming was resolved.

Most of the real issues is the GMing/ Campaigning a mythic game.  

No really, it is true if you think about it.  My system supports the minor super powers (minor in comparison to modern metas), divine contact, a wide variety of types (though D&D players think of it as a fighter only world), and does not require healing potions to keep heros alive.  Hero system and GURPs can do similar things, as can many other systems.  However, the mechanics are not that much of a barrier or hurdle to overcome.

No, it is how you present and script the game.

See, you can fall back on the old standbyes of fantasy gaming (You meet in the Bar), very few people are just "hired" for interesting things, and really there isn't enough treasure just hanging around to support a freelance tomb robber.  

Greek Heroes (and Of the Heroic Age characters) need to be self motivated, they need their own drives and goals.  Striving for those brings them into conflict with the world (and sometimes the Gods).  

Greek Heroes do the right thing.  They slay the big monster not because of the rewards, but because it is their civic duty to protect their city and countryside.  (They might get a minor reward, but they are doing it the City or Greece itself).  They might be completely scared, but they step up.  

Greek Heroes need to be a bit flawed.  (Any system used must have a gift/ flaw system. Without it, you are missing the "Humaness" of the Greek Protagonists).  

Heroes Retire, often, when they meet their goals or they have strived against the will of the Gods (and failed).    They might come out of retiremnt from time to time, but really they are out of it.  Well you achieve the Kingship, you pretty much stop adventuring (unless Kingship is just a stepping stone...).

So the EP system needs to be tailored to support this kind of effort. No EP for just killing things, but EP for reaching a goal, following your needs, stopping the dramatic conflict, and so on.
Note to self, write out the slight modification to the Convergence Point EP categories for this. The Convergence Point End Bonus fills the retirement reward need.

Bonus Points (Drama Points to the rest of you), are now only playable IF THE PLAYER IS FOLLOWING THEIR EMOTIONAL TRAIT or ONE OF THEIR GOALS (defined by the trait).  This is a switch in the normal game, it must be nailed down in A Heroic Age game.


Aside  Yes I do believe in generic game systems.  I also believe they need to be tweaked to "best fit" the setting.  All of it should follow the generic system's rules and formats, but modifications will make the game better.  (Though a better game system will need less tweaking).   So yes, a bit of custom chrome is a good thing.


Running the GODs is part of the issue.  

They are an important element in all myths... major NPCs that impact the players' lives.  

There is a balance point to be struck, as the story centers around the characters - The Heroes - not the Gods.  With that said, they are always in the background, a force greater than The Weather.

In the Myth they are normally seen at the begining or end of the story (though you will have some epilog about how the person lives on as a frog or tree or some such).   They are motivators or reward points for the characters in many cases.
The exception to this is the Demi-God characters, who might have a bit more "family contact" than most of ther characters.

Gods can be presented as Cut Scenes.  You can see scenes of the Gods in Olympus, (If you are very classicist, they are on a side stage or balcony box with the spot lights turned on them from time to time).  

The Divine presence shoudl be subtle if you can, but transformations and Hands of Zeus are part of the Plays and Myths.  

...

As a side note:  name the story arc or Saga if you can.  Don't be afraid of having to rename it if things go differently.  It is a guideline, not a marriage contract.  No lawyers involved.