I've debated whether to post this, as i have other things as yet unfinished, but truth to tell, this one has been perculating since about 1989...

That was when i first got WFRP and i started research on my own version of the game way back then that i've picked up every few years since.

I'm still unsure whether to include magic and fantastical elements, but the urge to be able to play an Ottoman Vizier, Bohemian Golem Artist or Renaissance Conjurer may prove too strong....

Anyway, here's a blurby thing i've written along with an example occupation entry. Along with SH, this is one i really want to get done at some point.

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The 15th century. Jan Huss has laid the foundations of the protestant movement, leading to the Hussite wars that ravage Bohemia and the Holy Roman Empire. Muscovy is straining its slumbering shoulders under the Tartar Yoke, Poland-Lithuania is gaining the upper hand in its war with the Teutonic Knights, and Rome is still recovering from schism. The Reconquista is reaching an end game in Spain and the Hundred Years war is coming to an end, leaving England on the slide towards civil war.

Southeast Europe is facing greater danger whilst Christendom looks inwards. The Ottoman advance is in full swing and each spring brings a new army to the Iron Gate. It falls to the valiant men and women of the Rumelian states to hold back the tide. Fragmented city-states, Duchies and Principalities must put aside their rivalries or fall –

Bulgaria has been swept away leaving Constantinople isolated and doomed.

Athens and the Morea is waiting for the hammer blow to fall as refugees from the crumbling Byzantine Empire flee westwards with the tools of the Renaissance in their hands.

Macedonia has fallen.

The Serbian Despotate changes hands between Durad Brankovich and the Ottomans on a near yearly basis.

Bosnia and Hercegovina is rife with sedition under ambitious leaders.

The province of Zeta is protected by the Black Princes.

Wallachia wavers between appeasement of the Turk and violent butchery of them under the auspices of the notorious Vlad Tepes.

Seemingly removed from the conflict, yet integral, is the Republic of Ragusa, which stands as a tranquil neutral ground where all may meet under truce and on the Ottoman’s very doorstep lurk the Knights of St. John on the island of Rhodes. Meanwhile, the Venetian Republic plays a longer game – trying to expand its own holdings on the Dalmatian coast, while surreptitiously opposing the Ottoman advance.

Three territories are more than just a thorn in the side of the Ottomans, for they are led by the Athleta Christi – the Champions of Christ, invested by the Pope himself. Albania and Epirus, under Gjergj Kastrioti (Skanderbeg) thumbs its nose at the Sultan, resisting all attempts to subjugate it. Moldavia under Stefan cel Mare (Stephen the Great) wins battle after battle against the Turk and Hungary, under the Regency of Hunyadi Janos and later the great renaissance King, Mathias Corvinus, is the mighty bulwark against which the Ottoman Empire batters itself, protecting central and northern Europe from harm.

Admiration for these courageous fighters flows in the courts of Europe but financial and military aid is thin on the ground. The Pope tries to raise interest in a new crusade with limited success. It is up to the individual to decide how to confront the fate that God has laid at his feet.

Enemy at the Gates: Athleta Christi employs a life-path system to create multi-skilled characters. Create a character from one of 19 different Homelands, such as Bosnia and Hercegovina, Duchy of Naxos, or Bulgaria. Choose from 13 character paths, including Military, Mercantile and Intellectual. Spend development points on over 200 occupations such as Bowman, Vagrant, Emissary and Hajduk, which when combined with Titles offer more than 600 character options. Buy titles, lead armies, join the resistance, travel the lands of Europe to gain support, get involved in the intrigues to the north, protect your business from ruthless competitors, form a mercenary corps, join the Ottoman army, sow sedition, sell indulgences, plot your advancement in the church, sail the seas as a merchant seaman, discover new lands, or just please yourself and lead the life of a wandering entertainer – the decision is yours.

Skanderbeg - "I have not brought you liberty. I found it here, among you."


Stradioti (Military)

These lightly armed horsemen form the bulk of the forces of Albania and Epirus. Typically outfitted with mail hauberks, swords and javelins, they form a highly effective guerrilla force able to make lightning fast hit and run attacks. At home on the coastal plains or in the mountains of the east of the country, these adaptable fighters are in demand as mercenaries in Milan, Venice and the Holy Roman Empire.

Lifestyle – 3 Poor

Skills

Ride
Javelins
Ambush
(Swords)
(Wilderness Survival – Mountains)

Titles

3rd – Sergeant (Lead from the Front) (Oration –2)

Lifestyle – 3 Poor

6th – Captain (Lead from the Rear)

Lifestyle – 5 Frugal

9th – Commander

Lifestyle – 6 Stable

A map of the time and place.

An example of a Homeland Template. The letters refer to the column you roll on for stat generation.

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Albania & Epirus

Might      A            Vitality   A
Intelligence   C            Discipline   B
Poise      B
Agility      C
Fortitude     A
Spirit      B

Cultural Occupation Levels (choose 3)

Stradioti
Mountaineer
Drover
Hajduk
Crusader
Wrestler

It sounds wonderful. I don't recognize the system elements--is this still based on WFRP?

If it's not based on an existing system, I would wish for something simple, which your notes seem to suggest.

No objection whatsoever to magic, in fact I'd enjoy both magical and non-magical versions of the setting, so modularity would be nice.

In terms of historical treatment, it sounds like you're going with the known history up to the time of the game instead of alt-history. Again, this is right up my alley. (I'm mystified and put off by the alt-hist treatment in e.g. Clash's Outremer.)

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;475799It sounds wonderful. I don't recognize the system elements--is this still based on WFRP?

Well it started off years ago as a bunch of careers i wrote up for WFRP. Now, i've altered it to the system i was going to use for 400. The life-path system is a beefed up WFRP career system (with some names changed to prtect the innocent) - which is the main similarity along with the time period.

QuoteIf it's not based on an existing system, I would wish for something simple, which your notes seem to suggest.

Stat + Skill - Diffilculty. d10 roll under. Bit more complex than that, but if you look at the 400 thread, the basics are there. I'll expand more in this thread as time goes by.

QuoteNo objection whatsoever to magic, in fact I'd enjoy both magical and non-magical versions of the setting, so modularity would be nice.

Yeah, i'll probably have a chapter covering a fantasy element. 'Cos the plan is to expand from the region so you can play culturally over the whole of Europe in the early Renaissance (another WFRPism). Next up after this is Enemy at the Gates: The Tartar Yoke.

QuoteIn terms of historical treatment, it sounds like you're going with the known history up to the time of the game instead of alt-history. Again, this is right up my alley.

Yeah. I'm going to include a historical timeline, as well as a timeline of inventions, births/deaths, artistic endeavours (artists & patronage is covered in this game - an apsect of the Renaissance sadly missing from WFRP), discoveries etc.

What the players and the group decide to do with it is up to them.

One thing that bothers me slightly about the blurb is that it's strongly Manichaean. About the only sympathy for the Turk I see is that characters can "join the Ottoman army". Meanwhile the fight against the Turks gets lots of good press. Not only is this rather ethnocentric (and in light of the recent history of the Balkans, uncomfortably philo-Serbian), but it suggests a style of game I'm not too crazy about--the one where the PC are handed a mission. (E.g. Deus Vult, whose conception I find extremely boring.)

Sure, this is undermined in places--mainly (again) in the section describing stuff that PCs can do.

To be honest my knowledge of the Ottomans-as-conquerers is too thin for me to say if they were any better or worse than the other princes, kings, tyrants, and despots of their times. Notably (like other Moslem conquerers) I do not believe they forcibly converted anyone (although again they may have created incentives through unequal taxation and other treatment), and they left the Greek Orthodox Church in place. I do remember from my studies that the Greeks were about as hostile to the "Latins" as they were to the Turks, due to earlier and ongoing experience (e.g., the Fourth Crusade).

Switching gears,

QuoteStat + Skill - Diffilculty. d10 roll under.

Well, that's not all there is to complexity. What I think contributes more is the # of skills, whether a GURPS-like point system is used, etc. It doesn't sound like it's going to be too involved.

Something like Talislanta, only with lifepath generation, would be great. (BoL sounds similar.) But from a marketing standpoint, I think it might be worth considering BRP or OpenQuest (less so Legend or Runequest). BRP in particular seems like the place to go these days for well-presented historical settings, so you'd be tapping into an existing audience as well as speeding up the start-up for people who already know the rules...and there are a lot of them.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;475853One thing that bothers me slightly about the blurb is that it's strongly Manichaean. About the only sympathy for the Turk I see is that characters can "join the Ottoman army". Meanwhile the fight against the Turks gets lots of good press. Not only is this rather ethnocentric (and in light of the recent history of the Balkans, uncomfortably philo-Serbian), but it suggests a style of game I'm not too crazy about--the one where the PC are handed a mission. (E.g. Deus Vult, whose conception I find extremely boring.)

Sure, this is undermined in places--mainly (again) in the section describing stuff that PCs can do.

To be honest my knowledge of the Ottomans-as-conquerers is too thin for me to say if they were any better or worse than the other princes, kings, tyrants, and despots of their times. Notably (like other Moslem conquerers) I do not believe they forcibly converted anyone (although again they may have created incentives through unequal taxation and other treatment), and they left the Greek Orthodox Church in place. I do remember from my studies that the Greeks were about as hostile to the "Latins" as they were to the Turks, due to earlier and ongoing experience (e.g., the Fourth Crusade).

The setting is the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans. You will be able to do whatever you like within that setting - see it as a backdrop, or use it as the focus. It's one of the reasons i used character paths - there'll be advice on running campaigns with primarily Military characters, primarily Political characters and so forth.

There'll be lots of detail on the Ottomans, what they brought to the region and chances to play them.

You're right about the blurb to a degree, but then it is called Enemy at the Gates!

Quote from: One Horse Town;475855The setting is the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans. You will be able to do whatever you like within that setting - see it as a backdrop, or use it as the focus. It's one of the reasons i used character paths - there'll be advice on running campaigns with primarily Military characters, primarily Political characters and so forth.

There'll be lots of detail on the Ottomans, what they brought to the region and chances to play them.

You're right about the blurb to a degree, but then it is called Enemy at the Gates!

Right, that's all great, I would just question the title and the subtitle as well. In addition to the reasons I've already given, "Enemy at the Gates" these days is more recognizable as a book & movie about the battle of Stalingrad. Something like "Crescent and the Cross" or "Crusaders and Janissaries" is too bland. "Flckering of Byzantium"?

This looks like great historical gaming that I'm very unfamiliar with. I'm interested, not so much for the game system aspect of it, but as setting material.  

Great questions and remarks by Elliot too. I'm not too fond of the title and the default stance which seems to be very pro-Christian as was noticed. But it's going to be a matter of execution. I can imagine a text where both strong, in character depiction of the resistance to the Turk and neutral explanations coexist. But I'm with Elliott about this: beware the metaphorical minefield and beware the endorsement of nationalism. Tensions are still going strong nowadays, unlike say the 100 years war which has lost its teeth and doesn't require much precautions.